19T Class - a good or bad thing?

[Colin Williams]

OK, I've started this thread so you can discuss the various merits, or not of running a 19t class alongside Stock on a Club night.

I don't want this to degenerate into a "slagging match" or I will delete the thread - rather it should be about why, or why not to run 19T.

So - over to you!

[Paul_U]

youll be surprised that the stock boys will proberly be quiker if not on par with 19t, due to being able to carry more corner speed as 19t would have to brake, 19t causing bigger bills at end of night, really depends how hard you crash, if you dont feel you can control 19t then stick with stock.

stock would be better for people on a tight budget, begginers etc, also its a change from the norm.

Paul

[craigb2004]

I agree. At the minute everyone is ragging the guts out of there 27t motors, with a 19t there would be less 'ragging' we'll say because it has that bit little bit more. Personally I see this as a natural progression, as 27t is not enough for some drivers. Lets not forget that we all used to use modified motors at a time.

[Colin Williams]

Paul:

Why if the stock boys would be on a par would we introduce 19T then - would it increase the driving skill required / challenge to the drivers?

What is the reason for considering cost? Isn't a 19T roughly the same price as stock?


Craig:

What do you mean by "ragging the guts out", I'm not aware of any burnt out motors, or problems?

Why do you think 27T is not enough for some drivers - what is it they want - more speed; closer racing; more option to tweak?

Modified motors.......ahh yes I remember those days, all the new / inexperienced drivers felt they needed to use mods and just went from one crash to the next!


We have just finished a really exciting series (in my opinion - for those who managed 8 or more rounds) where the racing was close, and everyone can see how they were improving against the top drivers such as Alex and John. I'd certainly be interested to see how the other F1 drivers feel about 19T.

Here's a controversial thought - would you restrict 19T to only those drivers over a certain ability?

Colin

[craigb2004]

I agree with the thought Colin. Perhaps F1 and F2 drivers should use 19t motors as they are more than capable of using them(in theory) and others must earn the ability to use a 19t motor as a reward for being a good driver.
Perhaps this is an answer? It would make F1 more interesting as higher speeds is what it needs to give it the f1 feel. I dunno what the answer is I just dislike the 27t motor I want more punch. I think if f1 is a different league all together then the lower leagues would be more competitive as there is a goal to head for. Perhaps bad F1 drivers could be relagated to 27t if there standards drop.

Answer to your Q's colin
1. The motors are getting to the stage of flatout and the need to brake is non exsistent at times. Is being a better driver need more skill? Using the brakes?
2.The 19t debate would have not arose if there was not a need for it. I guess.
3. That did not include everyone just the less experienced, thats is why the club should have a superlicence and allow the owners to run a different motor.

A thought... The club is a stepping stone for some to race at weekends at various venues, and this is a practice session for them, the first thing you do is put a bigger motor in if you are racing away. True or False? So the jump between 27t and a mod 12t is huge a 19t would narrow the gap.

[Colin Williams]

Interesting point on brakes - take a look at this thread:

http://www.rcracechat.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8442

As for punch - are your cells good, is your speedo set-up properly, have you geared your motor right for the track, etc? Paul U doesn't seem to lack punch or speed from a spectator perspective anyway!

Stepping stone to other tracks / events. Yes I see your point, but I've just started going outdoors again at Milton Keynes - running stock - which is by far the most popular - and highly competitive.

I know Dave runs at Bedworth - again 27T is the most popular there (just about), although I know Dave runs 19T - but the two classes get similar numbers of laps in 5mins.


Colin

[Dave I]

27t v 19t
Why move, or introduce, 19t? Remember the bad old days when we didn’t have motor limits? People with inadequate skills thinking "I NEED TO GO FASTER"... The only thing they did was get to the next crash quicker, and the crashes were a lot more costly, not just for them but the cars they collected along the way.

The move to 27t has brought some of the closest racing you could hope for. All on a level, cost effective playing field.

Now, you are all going to say "But you run 19t outdoors". Yes I do, but why? On an outdoor track, like Bedworth, the stock drivers are gearing to about 5.4:1, 19t about 5.3:1, the difference is with a stock on that ratio your lines have to be so clean and flowing to keep corner speed high as the 27t doesn't have the torque to get things going again quickly. 19t has the torque that if your lines aren't perfect then you can squirt out of corners. Top end of 27t are doing 17laps on the new track at Bedworth, 19t are on 18 laps, not a lot in it!

On our little, and it is little,track the gear ratio's are between 9:1 and 8:1. Stock motors have more than enough go at these ratios. I have run my 27t indoors for about 9 months now and its still going strong, so I can’t see 19t lasting any longer than 27t. Particularly since you would NEED brakes. Faster? Sub 8 second laps not quick enough for you?

The move to 27t form no limit did exactly what it was supposed to. Cleaner driving from all abilities, cost effective racing.

WHY CHANGE.

[Paul_U]

Colin,

main reason i would like to introduce 19t is the more speed factor, down the straight the 19t would be quicker than the stock but come to a corner and the stock would catch up, out of the corner they would be similar as the 19t would have to break into the corner and the stock could hold more speed.

the legal limit for 19t motors is £33 stock i beleive is £28 so is little bit more, to get the stock motor at top performance you would have to tweak the motor to get maximum potential out of it, 19t power out of the packet, when i run 27t at KMCC after every meeting i would have to skim and put new brushes in the motor, which can be quite costly on a weekly basis, now that the new V2 vange of motors are avaliable 19t has become more effective, i have done 10 runs on my motor and not even worried about comm/brushes, so over the long run it would be cheaper (for me) to run 19t.

As to F1, F2 drivers running 19t why not run 19t as stock is at the mo (if you get enough interest) ie F1, F2 and F3 in each class, you cant really discriminate people just because of there driving ability thats like saying a new member HAS to run stock, even though they may not want to.

i agree that most people will go for the most competitve/popular class but variety is the spice of life.

the only TRUE way to say wether 19t will be any good in the hall is to simply try it. any willing volenters :p (i may have some 19t for trial)

Paul

[Colin Williams]

OK, I understand the speed thing - not that we have that many or long straights to use it in!

Skim and new brushes every week - then you are taking it far too seriously - LOL :rolleyes:

I think the Club has benefited from having a "control" motor - it has certainly levelled the field a bit, improved the driving skills of many and reduced the amount of damage caused. IMHO it would be a shame to create a 2 tier meeting - to be honest I'd rather see it as all 27T, or all 19T - that's just my opinion though.

Dave is Race Director - so it's his call as to whether or not we allow some volunteers to try 19T. Logistically, it may also become a problem with segmenting heats / finals and the numbers of people racing with 2 classes.

Colin

[Paul_U]

but surely if all the 19t boys use BRCA legal motors isnt that level playing??

with the brushes i use it is necessary for me to skim/new brushes every week.

[Colin Williams]

OK - I take your point, but I'm afraid I have to discount the brushes/cost issue. We need to consider the majority of drivers at the Club - who are not going to be running new brushes every week and aren't trying to squeeze the last drop of performance out of a stock - many (including myself) are still trying to get the lines right and drive smooth clean laps.

If I then go on to compare your lap times to someone like John, who as far as I know is running a standard stock motor, does running a motor which is hard on brushes make much difference? Not enough to make it worthwhile I would suggest.

Oooops, I'm in danger of sounding like I'm having an arguement with you which is not what I intended :o - does anyone else have any thoughts?

Colin

[craigb2004]

I think that. Asking the 25-30 drivers at the club what they may think would be a start, afterall like colin said before it is only a small minority of the club actually us the forum, if you have enough interest run it. We cant speak for the pocket of others, if they want to break parts by trying to go quicker then let them Give the club a choice, and see what the result is afterall it is there club and they pay to keep it going.

[oliverro]

After a stringing a couple of good weeks together (which fortunately for me won F2) I've been fiddling with the car and now I'm back in the "struggling to hold onto it for more than a couple of laps" mode!

So for me until I can get a consistent set up, going to 19T would just be more expensive due to breakages. As the top F1 guys still have 3+ laps on me in a 5 minute final, I, like Colin, still want to work on getting those line right.

Can understand the frustration of guys wanting more speed. I'd have no problem with there being a "test" night where the 19T and 27T run side by side to see if there is a noticeable difference. I suspect they would blast past the 27Ts off the start and down the back straight and just hold tight lines through the twisty bits though!

See you all tomorrow.

[jatros]

at the end of the day lets face it, john, alex and paul are the three top people at the club most of the other people are still learning lines and no crashing as much (no offense any one :o ). Whats the point in everyone else running 19t when were still leanring how to drive stock "properly".

Craig where do you race at the weekend for you just to wack a 12t motor in, and when you put it in how do you do? i know when i go outdoor racing i always use 27t now and it is really competative and sometimes quicker than a few rubbish 19t.

for the size of are track shorly more speed for the rest of us would mean more accidents, more broken parts and more people getting annoyed at constantly breaking it and not coming back.

I think we should let maybe paul, alex and john run 19t (if they wish) but for most of the other racers this would just mean more breakages.

i hope i havent offended anyone, if i have sorry!!

[craigb2004]

[QUOTE=jatros]

Craig where do you race at the weekend for you just to wack a 12t motor in, and when you put it in how do you do? i know when i go outdoor racing i always use 27t now and it is really competative and sometimes quicker than a few rubbish 19t.

QUOTE]
I would race if I thoguht it would be worth while, but running a 27t motor does not give enough experience to be able to race at national level (for myself) your opinion of the 19t motor is blocking your judgement. If the club wants it the club will catter for it, that is why this should be bought up at a club event and not discussed by a few on the forum.

[jatros]

yeah but you dont race at a national level anyway, your in F3 and dont win it every time.

Do you race on a sunday with a 12t? besides you hardly ever turn up to the club anyway.

As for stocks having no punch or power, is your gearing set up alright because i have no problems.

Also not all the nationals are 12t there are 27t as well, and quite often they are better. Because with 12t its whos got the deepest pocket and can afford the best motor.

[Adrian Heslop]

Sitting here in me rocking chair with me pipe, I can remember the 'olden days' when we all used Mini Pins and any Modified motor !

THEN . . . .

We introduced the T27 and suggested that it should be the 'control' tyre - result - drivers 'cried' and complained about the lack of grip. They got on with it, everyone got a set and we had a control tyre! I don't think anyone would go back to the Pin now?.

We then suggested that we try a 27t Stock Motor - "arnt they for the Kids", "They will be too slow" were some of the replys, but now everybody runs a 27t and drivers cant be persuaded to go back to even 19t

FANTASTIC ! I never thought I would see the day when drivers would be arguing (nay debating) that they want to keep T27's and 27t Stock!

. . . . Ooooooh me pipe has gone out !

[jatros]

lol...well said ade.

Master Gates has got a 19t motor and wants to know if he can run it tonight????

[Colin Williams]

OK,

I'm going to say NO to running 19T tonight - and I hope Dave will agree and Ade as Vice Chairman.

Why?

Well to be honest the suggestion has come a bit out of left field and I think the Committee need to discuss this along with the general direction of the Club.

In addition, Race Meetings are hard enough to organise without throwing in a new complexity and trying to organise heats around a few 19T - and I know I certainly don't want to be in the same heat as one with my 27T.

As with all new ideas, if they are thought through properly first then we can make a sensible decision.

Colin

[craigb2004]

lol...well said ade.

Master Gates has got a 19t motor and wants to know if he can run it tonight????
Didnt think you agreed with it????????

[Adrian Heslop]

OK,

I'm going to say NO to running 19T tonight - and I hope Dave will agree and Ade as Vice Chairman.

Colin


The man from Delmonte he say . . . Ayi ;)

[gatesy]

Finally my P.C is sorted and I'll add my thoughts on this.

I think for the majority of us, a 19t motor will make little or no difference, as has been said before, working to make our lines right and become all round 'better' drivers would see the biggest speed difference, and I beleive that the series has really helped that.
Maybe for the 'top' drivers to have 19t motors would make the racing a little more exciting for all, and give us lesser drivers something to aim for.

Personally I still think that 27t is very close and exciting, and is getting better every week as we get closer and closer to the perfect line.

I'm fortunate enough to be in a position were spares dont cost me as much, and also have a 19t, so would be prepared to run in any test races that may or may not happen. But at the end of the day, would I be prepared to give up a close and exciting racing format, for the benifit of a handful of others....probably not

[jatros]

exactly...wots the point in spoiling everything we have built up for the club, at the minute everyone comes to racing on a friday night and knows what they are getting, a nice close race, start sticking 19t in them and the driving standards will decend, people will break it more and whos gonna enjoy breaking it. I agree with gatsey saying that the top drivers could use them.

For me the driving is good enough as it is... i want to work on getting my lines right not speeding up out the corners. At the moment its exciting and fun!

Any one else agree with me???

[Alex]

I wouldn't personally like to move towards a 19t format. I don't think there is any way using a faster motor could make the racing more exciting than it is at the moment. Sometimes me and John spend a whole race battling over position, I don't remember that happening too often when we used to use modified motors!

[craigb2004]

I agree with gatsey saying that the top drivers could use them.


I said that originally and you blew it out of the water but now your mate stuart says it you agree with it. James please make up your mind

[gatesy]

Right I've been talking to Paul, and think that we may aswell give it a try at some point, afterall, we will never know unless we give it a shot.
In theory we need 5-6 drivers to run a seperate heat, and Paul and I are willing to try, so 3 more drivers needed to give this a shot.
Like Craig says, we cant keep on blowing ideas out of the water without trying them.

[Paul_U]

Yeah im up for it still, got the 19t all bolted back in ready for friday, anyone esle up for giving it a go, James T must be, i could lend you a 19t if you wish, anyone else who wishes to borrow a 19t i may be of some sevice as i have a fair few (as long as they return in 1 peice, let me know if you wish to borrow one so i can get it ready).

also it depends what track we run on if we run on same as friday, it wouldnt be much fun round the tight chicane, personally i reckon track 6 would be good.

Paul

[jatros]

i dont really want it happen but i'll give it a go i suppose...wouldnt want to be left out now...can i borrow one of yours paul???

[Dave I]

NOTHING IS HAPPENING! Until the proposal is brought before the commitee and passed!

Quote from Paul "also it depends what track we run on if we run on same as friday, it wouldnt be much fun round the tight chicane, personally i reckon track 6 would be good."

So one of the best tracks we use, always enjoyed by the drivers would be suitable. As I see it the choise is:

Option 1:- Introduce another class. The F3 driver with not much skill thinks "its not me its the car! I need to run 19t to keep up" So rather than practacing on his driving and waiting for his skill level to rise, off he goes and gets a 19t. Now with 2 classes to book people into as race director I have to juggle the drivers around, after all I can't put Mr F3 on his own, so I fill up the 19t heat. 2 x F3 drivers inluding the guy with NO skill and one with some skill but his mate bought the 19t so he has as well. 3 x F2 drivers who cant get near the top end of 27t so have gone for another class and the superstar F1 driver. Imagine the race if you will. The superstar is lapping well until he comes accross the F3 guy with no skill who is sideways and trying to control his car and takes out the F1. Both cars broken and the night is over. One of the F2's also takes out a wishbone getting to a corner far to fast.

Not a good scene is it?

Option 2:- Stick with the 27t class. With only one class the drivers are sorted into heats easily by ability. So with the series over and all drivers abilities sorted from their final positions, they are racing like ability drivers. The heats are fast and furious and with the 27t motors giving plenty off punch and such close racing that the drivers come off the track comenting on how close it was.

Option 2 is FACT! Its what we have now some of the best racing I have seen, indoors or out!

[gatesy]

Well initially I thought 19t would be a big no no. Personally I am really enjoying stock, and like Dave says it just encourages the lesser abled drivers to buy faster motors, and get worse.
But for the top people it may give an extra challenge. So im really not sure. With the right limitations as to who can/cant use them it could work, but then others may feel discrimated against. I would like to try it, and feel the extra speed, but I'm beggining to think it could ruin all the good work, and great battles that the club has worked towards.

[Paul_U]

think we should call an end to the possible trial/class of 19t, it would of been a good experience (for me at least) to have tried it, but from comments, you can see that the class is unwanted at the present time.

Paul

[craigb2004]

think we should call an end to the possible trial/class of 19t, it would of been a good experience (for me at least) to have tried it, but from comments, you can see that the class is unwanted at the present time.

Paul
Is there no club in Northampton Paul?

[Paul_U]

NO, there is one in Silverstone but it is very small

Paul

[craigb2004]

Is there a demand for it in Northampton, as Benham Sports Arena would be great. Its just up the road from the schumacher factory

[gatesy]

Can I ask why you have such a major problem with the way the club is currently run?

[Paul_U]

there is nothing wrong with the club as it is at the moment gets a little cosy in the pits at times but we can live with that, its proberly one of the best clubs in the northants area going at the moment. (correct me if im wrong)

The main reason i suggested to run 19t is that it would be the class i would choose to run over the 2 classes, if the majoritory (sp) of the club want to run 27t then thats fine, i will not condem/slate the club just because it dosent want to run the class, thats fair enough.

It WOULD be great to have a club in northampton dont get me wrong, but you need the people/facilities to be able to get this going, then you need to get drivers to your venue, and i doubt that many if any would leave clubs they are currently at due to travelling distances etc

Paul

[Adrian Heslop]

Can I ask why you have such a major problem with the way the club is currently run?

I didn't get the impression that anyone has a 'Major Problem' with the way the club is run.
Its just a few drivers wanting to try (and you are one of them) the 19 turn class and thats it.

[Colin Williams]

Thanks for all the comments guys, it's been interesting to hear peoples views on 19T.

I think all I can say at the moment is that this should be discussed by the Committee and should be something we keep in mind - but I guess it's not going to happen in the short term.

We've had just over a year of 27T now and it does seem to be a very good/close class for all drivers, particularly with the size hall we have.

Friday nights should be about having fun, and enjoying the racing as well as the inevitable competitivness we all have to win! Personally I feel the Club has improved and hopefully that's reflected in the numbers that turn up each week. 27T is still a popular class outside the Club and as 19T becomes more popular, it may be appropriate to consider it - or then again it may not - for all the good reasons about size, complexity, etc.

Craig if you want to discuss setting up a Club in Northampton with Paul, or anyone else, I'd appreciate it if you used private messaging and not the KMCC discussion area - I'm not being funny, I just don't think it's appropriate.

Colin

[jatros]

I've removed the content of this post, as I don't feel it adds anything to the debate.


Colin

[Colin Williams]

I'm now locking this thread, as I think it's run it's course and I don't want it to get confrontational - which it may do if we let it go on further.

Once again thanks to everyone for the input.

Colin