brca insurance

[Mr Angry!]

I am making this inquiry on behalf of my club, WRCC based in high wycombe. we race bangers which attracts alot of drivers from other clubs, some of which dont have brca insurance cover. A lot of these drivers do not have brca insurance because of this. Is there a disclaimer that can be signed by drivers who are not brca covered so they can race, as alot of the drivers only come once in a while so dont see the point in getting the insurance when there home club dosent use it. any help would be appriciated. thank you.

[stewcc]

Jim would have a field day with this.:eek::mad: But I am sure he is tied up with some other meeting at the moment;)

I am not positive but I would not be suprised if your club found itself liable if an uninsured racer caused a problem. Disclaimers tend to have as much use as a useless thing.

Why not, if these drivers are regulars, just charge them £14 (£12 through your club) and join them to the BRCA.

Why does their club not need insurance? I would not dream of racing at a club that did not have public liability insurance. Indeed it may be illegal to organise race meetings without it. It is certainly very foolhardy.

In my view, insist that these drivers join your club (and therefore the BRCA) or the BRCA directly. Problem solved. If they don't, they can't race.

[Jim Spencer]

Hi

You've got it backwards - from your club point of view

The insurance covers the driver if somebody claims off them - and if they're playing down the park and want to take that risk then that fine..
However from a race meeting point of view:-
It also covers the organiser (i.e. YOU) as all claims will end up with two parties involved the person who's car caused the injury / damage and the club official who's safety system was circumnavigated in some way.

If there's a non insured person competing (other than newcomers to the sport under the 3 meetings rule), the person running the meeting is carrying that risk personally.

Never Ever put yourself in that situation - you might as well gamble your house.

I've seen the result of that scenario actually happen, and it's not nice and I never want to have to see anybody go through it again.


In this case

They can't play, unless their home club's cover still applies - it could, they'll need proof.
Or they have PL cover from some other source that applies - BMFA for example.

[Jim Spencer]

Hi

On the same point.

If you have a club near you that's not affiliated - check what PL cover they have.

They will probably either have a perfectly good policy they've had for years, it could come with the building or they could just make all the racers join the association directly - all these are fine (and there will be other scenario's too)

If however they have no insurance; -
Then you need to ask your concience a question before playing.
Myself I would walk away and go somewhere else as even though my backside is covered if i wipe somebody out through a freak accident the poor person in race control could well be ruined..

[Gasaxe]

Just a question, could the BRCA look into covering just clubs, eg the club pays the BRCA for the insurance cover and not the members, this way anyone can race anywhere, (just put a couple of quid on race entry)

Due to the fact the BRCA insurance does not cover you while you are marshelling, what advantage does the average club racer get from joining the BRCA.......???????

I am to beleave 99% of claims would be againest a club anyway, so to be honest if I was running a club I would get some sort of PLI, BRCA or from somewhere else.

[Jim Spencer]

Just a question, could the BRCA look into covering just clubs, eg the club pays the BRCA for the insurance cover and not the members, this way anyone can race anywhere, (just put a couple of quid on race entry)

Due to the fact the BRCA insurance does not cover you while you are marshelling, what advantage does the average club racer get from joining the BRCA.......???????

I am to beleave 99% of claims would be againest a club anyway, so to be honest if I was running a club I would get some sort of PLI, BRCA or from somewhere else.


Hi

It's quite amazing, especially as this is detailed in the 2010 handbook that folk still haven't got their head round this.

1) People can race anywhere now - if it was just the club the exact opposite would be true - this is exactly the problem you have if you go down the route of a bespoke policy for a club - plus it would be considerably more expensive.

2) It covers you while you're at your marshalls post, and while your marshalling if something unforseen happens - been through this before a few times... however if you just don't look and walk out right in front of an oncoming car then it's your fault! You need personal Accident insurance to cover - the Public Liability cover requires something to have gone wrong.

3) I've never dealt with a claim that just involves a club - always two parties, the driver of the vehicle (or operator of associated equipment) and the club official who's safety system / procedure has just failed.

Last bit is dead simple
If you don't WANT to join - don't.
Just go out and find an activity where somebody will organise things for you, and quite happily take on all that personal liability for your actions out of the goodness of their heart instead - I wish you luck with that quest.
Though as I pointed out above I couldn't do it myself as my concience wouldn't live with it.

PL cover protects the driver and the club - both MUST have it from somewhere - if you don't want to get if from us get it elsewhere, and enjoy your sport.

The primary aim of the association is to ensure our sport continues to exist - which in todays society is not a simple task, the insurance should be a benefit of membership, not your reason for joining - that should always be the knowledge that the sport exists today because a bunch of people got off their backside in 1972 and made a start, the officers you vote in will continue what they started.

[Mr Angry!]

so am i right in thinking that if the other clubs involved have got there own insurance, be it brca or another type of public liability insurance they will be ok. i no that one of the clubs that want to race at our club have another insurance other than brca covering there club and drivers racing anywhere. are they ok to race at our club under there own insurance instead of brca?

[Mark Christopher]

so am i right in thinking that if the other clubs involved have got there own insurance, be it brca or another type of public liability insurance they will be ok. i no that one of the clubs that want to race at our club have another insurance other than brca covering there club and drivers racing anywhere. are they ok to race at our club under there own insurance instead of brca?

only if the clubs policy covers all its members outside thier venue.
i really dont see what the problem of £12 is wen you consider the average racers budget!

[JimH]

It also covers the organiser (i.e. YOU) as all claims will end up with two parties involved the person who's car caused the injury / damage and the club official who's safety system was circumnavigated in some way.

If there's a non insured person competing (other than newcomers to the sport under the 3 meetings rule), the person running the meeting is carrying that risk personally.


Jim, the bit above implies that because the driver was not insured the race director's (i.e. the Clubs) BRCA insurance is automatically invalidated.

Is that correct?

And one other question. The "3 meetings rule" - is this per year or for life? Some of these drivers to whom Mr. Angry refers only come to our club once or twice a year. Can they be classed as temporary members in this case?

[bob burr]

The 3 meeting rule only applies to brand new people racing (gives them chance to see if they like the sport or not) it doesnt apply (from what i understand) to people who say have let there BRCA lapse.
I also asked the question of why we need BRCA membership when it seems (i say seems) its always going to be the clubs fault, and why a mechanic needs BRCA membership, as jim explained it to me (may not be exactly right) by having BRCA membership you are no longer just general public, eg you understand (or should) the dangers and rules of model car racing, if you didnt have it you could claim you never knew or were told the dangers of marshaling etc, you are just Joe public who was asked to stand in the middle of the track.
Hope iv got that right ??.

[terry.sc]

so am i right in thinking that if the other clubs involved have got there own insurance, be it brca or another type of public liability insurance they will be ok. i no that one of the clubs that want to race at our club have another insurance other than brca covering there club and drivers racing anywhere. are they ok to race at our club under there own insurance instead of brca?
This depends entirely on what insurance the other club has.

As an example my own club isn't BRCA affiliated, and the public liability insurance we have is through the building so it's pretty cheap as it is shared between and covers all the other users of the hall. This means the racers and visitors are only covered when they are taking part in club meetings in the hall, it won't even cover club members if we as a club organised a race meeting in the car park outside. The minority of members who race elsewhere all have BRCA membership, either personal or through other clubs.

I would be surprised if a club could get public liability insurance to cover all club members when they aren't taking part in club organised events, if so it would cover all club members at all times. If when you say "one of the clubs that want to race at our club" you are talking about a jointly organised inter club meeting then that is a grey area and you would need to discuss it with whoever is in charge of the other club to find out if their insurance covers them at different venues. If it just means a group of the other club members want to race at your club then their insurance is very unlikely to cover them.

Whether they are BRCA members or not you do still have the right to ask the other club to prove they have insurance. This is the big reason you are asked to show your BRCA membership card at race meetings, it proves you are insured. If the other club wants to race at your club under their own insurance they should still be able to prove it's members are insured at all times.
If they do prove their insurance is valid at your club then you should also insist the drivers prove they are members of the other club by producing a membership card to be sure they are actually covered.


Alternatively as a BRCA affiliated club according to the BRCA rules you can insist they become BRCA members.

BRCA General Rules:
2. Competitors
All competitors and all marshalls at BRCA events and at all BRCA Affiliated Club events and any other event organised by said organisations must be BRCA members.

[macro junkie]

i got my 1st ever licence/insurance through the post yesterday.i was reading the hand book that come with it..the 26£ insurance has gave me piece of mind.well worth it imo.would i of bought it if i only turn up at the track 2 X a year? yes i would.

[Mr Angry!]

So i need to see there insurance certificate before they can race if there not brca?
1 other angle,
If a paticular driver has his or her own insurance for work that covers them for other activaties, or the type of accident insurance my brother has that covers him racing proper bangers and hotrods anywhere he goes which also covers him for trips, slips and falls and accidents anywhere and any time?
Surely then they dont nessersarly need brca insurance because they are covered elsewhere?

I no this may look like i wont take no for an answer, all im trying to do is understand this from every angle so i can explain and understand what im explaining when i get confronted by people who are confused, and lets face it annoyed when they turn up saying they have other insurance with proof of it and i turn them away.

[PDW]

I hope this helps...

Personal liability insurance covers you, personally, for damage you cause to others (third parties is the legal term) due to your actions, or inactions. This is freely available through recognised insurers like Zurich.

Public liability is the same thing, but is a term used for insurance taken out by businesses and associations. Their cover will insure them against things that happen on their premises, and/or in the events they organise. This is also freely available through recognised insurers.

Either way, you are insuring against an event that causes damage or personal injury if an incident occurs. There are terms and conditions for all such insurance that state when it is valid, and when it is not.

If you have personal liability insurance that covers you for incidents that occur when you are driving your model car, anywhere, then fine, BRCA insurance may not be required. You will have to prove that you are covered for this activity.

However, despite the fact that you have that insurance, an incident may occur in which it is proven that your insurance is not valid. In that case, if you are at a Club, then the Club become liable. If the Club have no insurance, then whoever can be proven to be the organiser/s then become liable. It's at this point that all your possession become at risk if you cannot pay your lawyers fees and/or any compensation awarded.

The BRCA insurance covers you personally for driving your car, anytime, anywhere. If you are an organiser, it covers you for any claim against you. It does not cover you if you are on a track and step in front of a car without looking, or any other form of not paying reasonable attention. Also, it does not cover an accident you have that is your fault - get Personal Accident cover for that.

So, if your Club is not BRCA affiliated, and you are not a BRCA member, you will need to find insurance for personal liability up to £5m per annum, and for the same cover if you are organising an event. It costs many times the BRCA membership, if you can get any as an organiser outside local deals with the building you are using.

The problem for Mr. Angry is that if the person is insured personally, they'll be covered. That's fine if it is found that they were 100% responsible for the incident. If, as is often the case, it is found that the Club is partly to blame, then Mr Angry will be sued too. If he has no insurance, then he is personally liable.

The car clips a barrier, leaves the track, and smashes into the leg of a promising young athlete. The athlete sues, and the Court decides that the driver was 80% liable, and the organiser 20% liable for not having an effective track barrier. The athlete produces ample evidence that they were an olympic gold medal prospect, or Premier League football player of the future, and the award is £1m, with costs, for lost earnings because their tendon won't repair. The Club organiser now has to find £200k plus legal fees. Not having paid £15 for their BRCA membership, they are personally liable for that sum.

Carry on disagreeing as long as you like, but the reality is that it has already happened, and will happen again. Why would you not pay £15? HTH :)

[JimH]

The problem for Mr. Angry is that if the person is insured personally, they'll be covered. That's fine if it is found that they were 100% responsible for the incident. If, as is often the case, it is found that the Club is partly to blame, then Mr Angry will be sued too. If he has no insurance, then he is personally liable.
The car clips a barrier, leaves the track, and smashes into the leg of a promising young athlete. The athlete sues, and the Court decides that the driver was 80% liable, and the organiser 20% liable for not having an effective track barrier. The athlete produces ample evidence that they were an olympic gold medal prospect, or Premier League football player of the future, and the award is £1m, with costs, for lost earnings because their tendon won't repair. The Club organiser now has to find £200k plus legal fees. Not having paid £15 for their BRCA membership, they are personally liable for that sum.

Carry on disagreeing as long as you like, but the reality is that it has already happened, and will happen again. Why would you not pay £15? HTH :)

Very well put. However, refering to the bit I have highlighted above, Mr. Angry is a member of the BRCA. The club is a BRCA affiliated club. So if it turns out the driver's personal insurance is invalid, why does that cause a problem for Mr. Angry?

This is all about a handful of drivers attending Mr. Angry's "open meetings" 2 or 3 times a year. Mr. Angry, the Club and all of its members are members of the BRCA. It is the occasional visitors that are giving us a problem.

Thanks,
Jim.

[BigBob]

It may very well be that by allowing non BRCA members to race that the risk is not the one that the insurance company based their premium on.

Like most things insurance you only really find out how effective your cover is when it comes to making a claim - the bigger the claim the more you'll find insurance companies will try and wriggle out - ah sorry, mitigate their losses. ;)

BB

[PDW]

Very well put. However, refering to the bit I have highlighted above, Mr. Angry is a member of the BRCA. The club is a BRCA affiliated club. So if it turns out the driver's personal insurance is invalid, why does that cause a problem for Mr. Angry?

This is all about a handful of drivers attending Mr. Angry's "open meetings" 2 or 3 times a year. Mr. Angry, the Club and all of its members are members of the BRCA. It is the occasional visitors that are giving us a problem.

Thanks,
Jim.Apologies, didn't pick that up. According to the BRCA then Mr Angry is insured. However, if the person who is not insured has no assets, and the Club has a portion of the liability only, then the injured party will not get proper compensation. Do you want the potential Olympic medalist to be living a life of penury because the person causing the incident, although found liable, can't pay?

If it were me, I would want everyone insured so that, if something happened to me, I could be compensated properly, and not have to be disadvantaged because Mr Angry allowed someone without insurance (and assets) to race and cause me harm. In today's world, everyone thinks of themselves. How about thinking about others? And, it is only £15.

You raise a good point here. I am now better informed. In future, I will ask at every Club I race if everyone is insured. If not, I may race somewhere else. Not for me a life of pain and poverty because the organiser was too afraid of losing drivers to ask everyone to pay £15. You know it makes sense... :)

[Mark Stiles]

Pete, you would not believe the discussion and arguing that has taken place at club and committee meetings surrounding this 'issue'. I sit there in amazement, trying to figure out why they are so against coughing up £15 to make the problem go away. The solution is so simple, and yet people are intent on making it complicated and causing hassle for me, Jim, Matt (Mr Angry) and the rest of our club.

[Andy Taylor]

In my view, insist that these drivers join your club (and therefore the BRCA) or the BRCA directly. Problem solved. If they don't, they can't race.

If only. Lets not forget in many sections this is fine but when you introduce Pitpersons you up the anti. Ballon goes up!