Winter Series?

[Stelios Bishop]

Could we have more rounds in this Series please.
Also if cars are not working properly, can we have them taken off the track, so that they don't hinder the other drivers?

Will there be a seperate formula for Brushed AND Brushless motors?

Cheers

Stelios

[Stelios Bishop]

I agree with Richard
that this seems rather unfair to those who can't race every opportunity in the next couple of months, and would be heavily influenced by a single bad result.

Why not 4 out of 6 ? This would't take much longer to complete, and as we don't have a Spring Series there's no rush - is there?

Also, following another thread about this Winter Series, separating brushless from brushed seems pointless given our local rules allow 19T brushed and 13.5 brushless - don't these offer similar performance in the right hands (ie not my hands)?
If we don't seperate brushed and brushless we will have the same people in the top heats winning all the time, i think we should have different formula as last year. And more rounds in the series.

I was told that the series would start on the 31st January, but nothing has been sorted out yet.

[Martin Day]

First of all, as the club rules now state that motor choice is 13.5T brushless, 27T brushed or 19T brushed, there is no reason to split them into separate formulas. The only reason brushless was a separate category last year was because it was not a permitted motor per the club rules and was allowed as a concession to those who wanted to run it.

Formulas are more likely to be split on ability and/or age and the number of formulas will depend upon how many racers we have. It’s a bit pointless in having formula groups with less than 6 drivers so there will only be 2 or 3 (at most) groups which could be split on ability (F1, F2, F3) or age (Junior, Senior, the rest) or a combination of the two (F1, F2, Seniors).

I agree with Richard that only holding the series over 4 rounds can be a disadvantage to some members who can’t attend every week. The series used to be run over 6 meetings, with the best 4 to count, which gives a better chance for all and possibly a more competitive series than the best 3 from 4.

I have also suggested to John that perhaps we could count each individual final as a separate round of the series (each meeting would have to have 2 finals) and your series standing could be determined as follows:

4 meetings – best 5 from 8
5 meetings – best 7 from 10
6 meetings – best 8 from 12

Martin

[Stelios Bishop]

Cheers Martin for reply,
I quite like the idea of having two finals count as seperate rounds.
I quite like 6 meetings - best 8 from 12 to count.

Stelios

[titan bishop]

hi everyone
i have designed some tracks for the winter series some i will bring on the first round of the series
say i will post them up on the thread later

James

[Dugald]

Hello. I dont think I can make the first round on the 31st, therefore like Stelios I would prefer to have more rounds. Having the best 4 from six would be good for me. When will the format eg number of rounds be agreed?

Dugald

[Stelios Bishop]

So what is happening then John on Sunday?
Will the series be started this weekend?

:-)

[John_Parker]

I'm in favour of sticking to our 6-race series, like we have always done. I also like Martins "each Final counts" idea - more real racing. I will admit to being stuck on how to divide up our membership in to groups that can contest a series against each other. We have done ability and age in the past. We don't have a lot of beginners now, so a beginners group makes no sense. Given the number of members, two groups gives about the right numbers in a group, but making the division is tricky. On their day, most people can challenge for an "A" place. Maybe we should divide on bodyshell colour or stick/wheel transmitters for a random selection.

Oh, BTW, I'm back from the desert. It was tough coping with 23 degree C heat and Mexican beer, but someone has to do it

[Martin Day]

I have a couple of proposals/discussion points re the winter series.

Given that it is better to qualify last in the ‘A’ final than first in the ‘B’ final (since in the ‘A’ you can gain positions but in the ‘B’ you can only loose positions) I think it is sensible that the finals each week have the same number of racers (say 5 rather than 6). By that I mean if there are 15 racers in total then there should be 5 in the ‘A’, 5 in the ‘B’ and 5 in the ‘C’. However if there are 18 racers then ‘A’, ‘B’ & ‘C’ have 5 racers whilst ‘D’ has 3 (rather than 5,5,4,4). There may need to be a slight modification if we end up with 1 in the bottom final.

I would also suggest that for a final to count, as a scoring round, the driver’s car must complete at least one lap (under its own power without manual intervention).

Martin

[titan bishop]

hi everyone how was the meeting go today

james

[John_Parker]

Sorry I could not make it today. Results from today now posted http://www.crcccc.org.uk web site. Watch out for details of the 2 groups (Formulas) that will contest the series here shortly.

[cleanracer2006]

well done David Gale and Alex Day just gutted i was not there to see it

[John_Parker]

Martin pored over previous results and used sophisticated analysis techniques to divide us in to two groups or "Formulae" to contest the Winter Series as follows:

F1
Alex Day
Alexander Wojtecki
David Gale
John Hyde
John Parker
Leyton Foster
Russell Valiant

F2
Dave Riley
Dugald Peebles
Ian Horseman
James Bishop
John Valiant
Niall Buckley
Rhys Foster
Richard Poulsom
Rob Jamieson
Stelios Bishop

We will be using the "each final counts" scheme as Martin posted above. We just need to work out the standings now we have run 4 sets of finals over two meetings. Today's race results are on the http://www.crcccc.org.uk web site.

BTW - I enjoyed the track today James, eventually!

[titan bishop]

hi
thx john maybe i think up a new track in the 2 weeks.
good racing everyone.
oh yea john could you put up the points to see what i need to do to secure 3rd place.
yea the track was diffrent twisty and a bit tight but fun and challenging which you want if your challenging people for points
James

[John_Parker]

Martin has done the Excel magic and resuts fo far are on the http://www.crcccc.org.uk web site

[Stelios Bishop]

Just checked my points and rhys and i scored different even though we both finished 1st and 2nd in the final. In James finals there was a non member who finished 1st, did he score points, and did he take points away from those below him?

Nice track by the way James and well done.

Stelios:)

[Martin Day]

Stel. The reason the points for you and Rhys are different between the two rounds is because Alex (Day) did not start his second final and therefore, in accordance with my suggested points rules, could not score points. I think that this is correct since, as each final counts as a round, it is as if Alex was not at that round and therefore everyone below him effectively moved up one place. This actually makes no difference as you will see that the combined score for the meeting between you and Rhys is exactly the same.
I had actually considered this situation when doing the scores and the alternative would be to allocate the points to Alex on the assumption that he would be last in his final but not actually count the points in his total.
I'm not sure if using one method or the other would make a difference at the end of the day - maybe Alexander or John (as committe members) would like to comment.

With regard to non-members their placing is ignored and do not score points or take points away from anyone below them.

Martin

[titan bishop]

hi martin
i remember last year in the last round when ralph turned up and he was not a member you like gave everyone 5 point to there actuall score
and i dont understand the scoring

James

[Martin Day]

James. The scoring is quite simple. Each racer who is eligible to score in the series is ranked on final position in the round. Remember each final is a seperate round in the championship so the overall meeting position shown in the computer results (which is an aggregate of the two finals) is irrelevant. The top placed driver is awarded 100 points, the next 95 points and so on.

So on Sunday's first final the results and points were awarded as follows:

Racer Pos Pts

Leyton Foster A1 100
Alexander Wojtecki A2 95
David Gale A3 90
John Parker A4 85
Masaya Yumeda B1 - (Non member so no points)
James Bishop B2 80
Ian Horseman B3 75
Alex Day B4 70
Stelios Bishop C1 65
Rhys Foster C2 60
Niall Buckley C3 55
Dugald Peebles C4 50

The second final went as follows:

Leyton Foster A1 100
Alexander Wojtecki A2 95
David Gale A3 90
John Parker A4 85
Masaya Yumeda B1 - (Non member so no points)
Ian Horseman B2 80
James Bishop B3 75
Alex Day B4 - (Did not start race so no points)
Rhys Foster C1 70
Stelios Bishop C2 65
Dugald Peebles C3 60
Niall Buckley C4 55

Hope that makes sense

Martin

[titan bishop]

thx martin
it bit better but now people who miss 1st meating will have to be b finalist or a finalist if there going to beat people in front and that hard
because shame we could'nt have 6 rounds of meating then it more even
all i need to do is make sure i stay ahead of the people that i beat and hoping that they are having a bad meating

[A.Wojtecki]

Yes - that's all correct and Martin I agree that if someone doesn't complete a lap in their final they get 0 points (as was the point so you couldn't get points just by qualifying last in the A for example and sitting it out) and so everybody below essentially moves up 5 points.

Now a far more interesting way of scoring it would be to calculate the average lap time of the winner and the standard deviation of the winner's laps. Call this x points and then use negative scoring with a scaling system to take a certain amount of points off from x for every thousandth of a second that the average lap time is slower and take more points off for every hundredth that the standard deviation is greater (conversely points could be gained for a lower standard deviation). Bring on the A-Level Statistics!!!

[Martin Day]

James. We are having six meetings in the series giving a total of 12 finals of which your best 8 will count toward your overall position. Its difficult to judge anything after just two meetings (4 finals) you just have to do your best at every meeting.

Martin

[Stelios Bishop]

Thanks Martin for explaining, So did every one enjoy the track?

[ralph]

Now a far more interesting way of scoring it would be to calculate the average lap time of the winner and the standard deviation of the winner's laps. Call this x points and then use negative scoring with a scaling system to take a certain amount of points off from x for every thousandth of a second that the average lap time is slower and take more points off for every hundredth that the standard deviation is greater (conversely points could be gained for a lower standard deviation). Bring on the A-Level Statistics!!!
I don't think anything from A-level statistics should ever be combined/mentioned alongside racing! What are you thinking! :p

[John_Parker]

No results from Sunday yet as I don't have the laptop and equipment. I'll try to pick it up from Stel over the weekend. Hope to be able to race myself on March 7th!

[A.Wojtecki]

BTW - Stel doesn't have it - he left before we'd even packed up, I believe that Dugald has it instead.

[Stelios Bishop]

Sorry John, i forgot to pick laptop up. I had to go early.

[John_Parker]

Results from Sunday now on http://www.crcccc.org.uk web site, thanks to Dugald for holding the gear

[Dugald]

No problem John, thank for posting the results.
I point to clarify from Sunday, and refering to Martins post No.9. Martins point was to have 5 cars in as many of the finals as possible. Ian and I were having good races in the heats and were looking forward to more of the same in the finals. The finals were all 4 cars in each. Is there a rule to say how many cars in each final as I think Martin did have a valid point in has post.
Thanks.

[John_Parker]

Updated series reults so far now on http://www.crcccc.org.uk web site, thanks Martin

[John_Parker]

I will be back on Sunday having missed last time. Extra power in car. A day of 1/12th practice last Sunday. Unstoppable!

[John_Parker]

Results from today are now posted on http://www.crcccc.org.uk web site

[John_Parker]

And you can see the updated results so far on the website now, thanks Martin

[titan bishop]

hi everyone
dugald could i ask what frequency you are on because one of your crystal is the one im using and i was getting interfference in the finals

let me know
James

[John_Parker]

I'm all re-built ready for this Sunday. I found the front belt had regions where all the teeth had gone. Pretty stupid of me not to check more thoroughly as I had replaced the centre pulley because it was worn and did not inspect the belt carefully enough. Anyway, restored to full motive power now.

[Stelios Bishop]

I just re-built my car today, just as well shocks had no rebound, rear diff very gritty, thought i had a new rear belt but didn't have one. Just need skimming motor's with new brushes and off we go to driving very poorly again.
I need to clean and re-build James over the next two days, so he should be happy.

[John_Parker]

Stel's note reminded me to comment about running my 19T "V2" motor - the one with the aluminuim bell and inclined, round brushes. It's maintenance-free, at least on the gearing and speedo settings I use. Because it finishes a race cold, there's no brush or comm wear and the bell design keeps all the debris out too. Who needs brushless?

[ralph]

Think I should be racing this weekend too. This thread's just reminded me I need to take my car out and check it over! Cells will need some cycling too after a 3 month break. Decided to sell everything by August, so I'll only do another two or three meetings in total. Might as well make sure they're good ones :p

[John_Parker]

Today's race results now on http://www.crcccc.org.uk web site. Some good racing today!

[Stelios Bishop]

Well Done James,
i knew i shouldn't of cleaned and rebuilt your car and motor. oh well next meeting i have to try better.
It was abit hard dueling with the youngsters, i didn't know which way to overtake them which then took me out.

A proud dad

[John_Parker]

and the results table so far is now on the http://www.crcccc.org.uk web site. Only one more meeting to go...

[John_Parker]

Today's race results and the final Winters Series placings are now on the http://www.crcccc.org.uk web site.

A good couple of final meetings to conclude the series. Well done to all. We will sort some pots for both Formulas.

[Stelios Bishop]

Has any thought be made about this years winter series?

[Stelios Bishop]

We could run the winter series like last year.

[Dugald]

Winter series. Last year was best 4 out of 6 meeings, with each finals points counting and I say just do the same again as last year was good fun.
I think F1 and F2 is also good and should be used again as it splits things up a bit, but how do we split the racers?
Just my thoughts.
Dugald

[John_Parker]

Winter Series R1 & 2 results now posted on http://www.crcccc.org.uk web site.

The format will be like last year, best 4 out of 6, spit in the 2 formulae as follows:

F1
Alex Day
Alexander Wojtecki
David Gale
John Parker
Dugald Peebles
Russell Valiant

F2
Dave Riley
Ian Horseman
James Bishop
Niall Buckley
Richard Poulsom
Rob Jamieson
Stelios Bishop

next race Feb 20th

[John_Parker]

WS Rounds 3&4 from today posted on http://www.crcccc.org.uk web site.

Updated contestants:
F1
Alex Day
Alexander Wojtecki
David Gale
John Parker
Dugald Peebles
Russell Valiant
John Hyde

F2
Dave Riley
Ian Horseman
James Bishop
Niall Buckley
Richard Poulsom
Rob Jamieson
Stelios Bishop
Paul Dawson

Next rounds are next Sunday, 27th Feb

[Stelios Bishop]

Well done, not bad day's racing, must remember to leave James at home next meeting.
He is just getting to good for me to beat.
Well new speedo was fun to drive, special thanks to John P for drilling my chassis :)
I was geared at 8.93 fdr today using a 16t pinion and 84t spur and the thing was still too quick down the straight.
Can't wait until the next round.

Stelios

[titan bishop]

Hi all

Went to Ardent Raceway for practice and for meeting it was awsome me and my Dad were in the old school 13.5 class with no timings and stuff i won all qualy then came 4th overall out of the both top and bottom heat and only retained 4th as i had a problem in the final were my car had stopped as i was gunning for the lead unfortunatly my Dad won the final but i still had better pace and higher laps than he did but overal it was fun good place to test.
i was only 5 laps of the 10.5 driver Stefan Chodzynski so overal i was happy with myself and the car.

James

[Stelios Bishop]

What's the points gap between James and myself, Martin

[Martin Day]

Hi Stel.

James has a 10 point lead after 6 rounds (3 meetings). John has a full list of current standings which hopefully he will add to the website.

[John_Parker]

Web site updated http://www.crcccc.org.uk with race results and Series standings.
Next race March 20th at Milton (unless anyone wants to try to organize Over in between?)

[Stelios Bishop]

Well that was a fun meeting:))

[A.Wojtecki]

John - could you post the series standings after last round? Thanks

[John_Parker]

Now posted, thanks to Martin for doing the calculations
I just need to find some speed for next time, or hope others slow down

[Stelios Bishop]

Just look on the site, don't know where i going to find 25 points to get passed James, i might have to send him to his room for the next couple of meeting :)
And hopefully i be fighting fit next meeting, as i made to many mistakes last time.

[John_Parker]

Yesterday's Winter Series R9&10 results now on http://www.crcccc.org.uk website. Results table to follow soon

[John_Parker]

and the results table is now updated on the website, link above

[Martin Day]

Final Winter Series Standings

F1
Alexander Wojtecki 800
Alex Day 765
Dugald Peebles 755
John Parker 640
John Hyde 180

[Martin Day]

Final Winter Series Standings

F2
Stelios Bishop 675
James Bishop 665
Dave Riley 610
Niall Buckley 540
Paul Dawson 410
Richard Poulsom 130

[Stelios Bishop]

Thanks Martin,

Very close to losing again, James is getting way to good for me, well done to although's that came 1st to 3rd:)

Stelios:)

[John_Parker]

Winter Series final round from April 17 and final results table now posted on http://www.crcccc.org.uk web site.

Next race May 8th at Milton