Orion V2s

[Stew Noble]

What is the difference between the V2 Modified and the V2 Touring, -apart from the colour :P- ?

Stew

[Southwell]

Probably the smoothness of the power. Touring car motors are normally smooth the modified for off road have more punch

[MattW]

I believe they use a different armature. The touring one for revs, and the off rd one for torque.

[Dan Reynolds]

I believe they use a different armature. The touring one for revs, and the off rd one for torque.


I think your right there Matt they have different armatures, in the modified one it has thicker webbing (not too sure what that means ???) and it will generate more torque and the touring has thinner webbing and will have a higher RPM

[Ben Turner]

The Modified utilises a armature that makes it very smooth and easier to control in slippy comditions, where as the touring is a lot more punchy and not as smooth.

Ben

[Phil C]

admitt it stew u just want the blue 1 ;D

[Sam_Smith]

The Modified utilises a armature that makes it very smooth and easier to control in slippy comditions, where as the touring is a lot more punchy and not as smooth.

Ben


Surely this contradicts the above posts so who is right?

[learnerdriver]

I believe they use a different armature. The touring one for revs, and the off rd one for torque.


I think your right there Matt they have different armatures, in the modified one it has thicker webbing (not too sure what that means ???) and it will generate more torque and the touring has thinner webbing and will have a higher RPM


as I read the previous posts:
touring - thinner webbing - less rotational mass - spools up quicker - more punch, less torque, less smooth?
modified - thicker webbing - more rotational mass - spools up slower - less punch, more torque, smoother ?

so I think they are both right, just a different interpretation ???

[MattW]

Not sure about some of these definitions!

I have tested the different arms in the same cans before. Generally i found something like the following:

The thick web has more "grunt" out of a corner. More torque. The thick web arms can be (and need to be ) geared higher (than thin web). Usually something like 2 teeth. They have less RPM. I beleive this is generally down to having more magnetic material on the stack. They are also more efficient.

The Thin web has more RPM and therefor geared lower. Generally even with the gearing sorted there is less bottom end and mid range than the thick web. They also pull more juice from the cells.

Personally i use thin web arms for touring car (12 turn anyway) and thick webs off rd.

[Chrislong]

Does the 'screamer comm' make much difference on the o'hara edition (purple) motors?

Is the Jukka motor high revving or high torque?

Chris

[Mark Payne]

Does the 'screamer comm' make much difference on the o'hara edition (purple) motors?

Is the Jukka motor high revving or high torque?

Chris


Hi Chris

The diagonal cut on the Hara comm makes for a LOT of power and revs... and bags of heat to go along with it.

The arm gets so hot that Orion choose to spot weld the wire to the comm rather than solder it in place with the normal hi temp solder.

Another mod is that the arm is first roughly epoxy putty balanced. Then a final layer of clear epoxy seal is applied over the (hardened) putty and the winds to lock the whole thing down. The arm is then re-drill balanced to allow for the errors introduced with the finish epoxy coat.

The reason for the two stage process is that the arm revs so high that the epoxy putty alone would fly off!

IMHO the Hara is a killer motor but needs a LOT of battery behind it. It is desinged for POWER and the efficiency is not so good! If your 3300's are in good condition then all is well and good...

My tip for a FANTASTIC combo is the Hara can with the Orion Euro Core 12*1 HS arm in it. This is a lot more conservative than the screamer arm and not so aggressive on battery. PM me if you want the product code for the Euro Core arm....

Moderators... can I give product codes?

Cheers
Mark

[Chrislong]

Thanks Mark,
So i think i will reserve my Hara 8x1 for 2wd only! boy am I bursting to try it, shame it hasn't arrived yet.

Am I right to say, due to the characteristics of the Hara it needs to be geared lower to cope?

Chris

[Mark Payne]

Thanks Mark,
So i think i will reserve my Hara 8x1 for 2wd only!
Chris


Gulp! 8*1! Good luck to you!

Yes you will want to gear the Hara down a bit to help it to strip the transmision out of your car!

I am waiting for bigger outdoor tracks and summer traction before the Hara arm goes back in!

Cheers

Mark

[MattW]

The Hara has a completely different arm, not just a different comm.

It is also worth bearing in mind that at this moment in time the Hara does not appear on the BRCA list.

[Mark Payne]

The Hara has a completely different arm, not just a different comm.

It is also worth bearing in mind that at this moment in time the Hara does not appear on the BRCA list.


Hmm... you may be refereing to posts from others but I never said only the comm was different in the Hara motor. It is one of the major differences and I was tring to explain some of the others.

Also IMHO the BRCA homologation list for motors is a quick process. A motor is submitted... then passed. Not sure of the exact timming here but its quick. Mr H will enlighten us.

Maybe you are suggesting the the diagonal cut on the comm is going to prevent it form being homologated? I think not m8.

Cheers

M

[Mark Gilliland]

Any difference between the Orion Hara editions and the Peak Surikaan editions??

Just checked the mod lists and the surikaan is definately legal.

Thanks

Mark

[MattW]

Mark, I have just stated a coupld of facts. Not necessarily aimed at anyone.

Although having said that, you posted:


The diagonal cut on the Hara comm makes for a LOT of power and revs...

Is it just the cut that makes all this extra power though?? I don't know as i haven't tried one, and more importantly i haven't ever seen a std V2/Core arm with the diagonal cut. That would be the only way of prooving it for sure.



Maybe you are suggesting the the diagonal cut on the comm is going to prevent it form being homologated? I think not m8.


Not suggesting why they aren't on the list, but they aren't are they??

[MikeS]

Goto go with Matt on this, I would like to see some empirical data as I see absolutely no technical reason why having a spiral segment cut would make the motor more powerful! If anything I would have said it would make it "softer" since brush/segment overlap starts sooner!

There are only 2 reasons why a motor is not approved;
1: it does not meet the specification requirements.
2: It has not been presented for approval.

The BRCA rules do not prescribe the cut of the segment slots so this would never be a reason for non-approval.

[Mark Payne]

Arh Matt,

Now you have me thinking!

I have one of these in my hands and I cannot work out what the heck it is doing!

The "mean" position of the slot in the comm lines up with the centre line of each stack. Half if the comm segment is advanced and the other half is retarded. What does this mean?

I realise that I do not understand advance.

Cheers

Mark

[colin_jackson]

Mark, I have just stated a coupld of facts. Not necessarily aimed at anyone.

Although having said that, you posted:


The diagonal cut on the Hara comm makes for a LOT of power and revs...

Is it just the cut that makes all this extra power though?? I don't know as i haven't tried one, and more importantly i haven't ever seen a std V2/Core arm with the diagonal cut. That would be the only way of prooving it for sure.



Maybe you are suggesting the the diagonal cut on the comm is going to prevent it form being homologated? I think not m8.


Not suggesting why they aren't on the list, but they aren't are they??



the hara and the rest of the orion range are now on the offical website list

www.brca.org

colin

[Terry]

What is the difference between the V2 Modified and the V2 Touring, -apart from the colour :P- ?

Stew


The V2 motors don't seem to have an infinite resistance between the brushes and the endbell (the anodising appears to be acting as the insulation)... hmm I always thought the brushes should be insulated from the endbell?? :o Somebody told me this today so I've not had chance to check this myself. I was told it measures about 40 odd ohms. Maybe this is part of the new V2 motor design?? ::)

[Brettbeck]

i think its like the core motors.....there aint really any differance...

Brett

[cobra81li200]

Any difference between the Orion Hara editions and the Peak Surikaan editions??

Just checked the mod lists and the surikaan is definately legal.

Thanks

Mark


Colours...

[cobra81li200]

What is the difference between the V2 Modified and the V2 Touring, -apart from the colour :P- ?

Stew


The V2 motors don't seem to have an infinite resistance between the brushes and the endbell (the anodising appears to be acting as the insulation)... hmm I always thought the brushes should be insulated from the endbell?? :o Somebody told me this today so I've not had chance to check this myself. I was told it measures about 40 odd ohms. Maybe this is part of the new V2 motor design?? ::)


I think there's an insulation between the copper part and the endbell. At least it seems to work.

About the difference between the Modified and the touring, the first has an armature made for Off Road and the second for touring (so provides more torque). Cans and endbells are the same though, it's just the diameter of the armature that's different, jsut exactly like on the Core, as they use the same armatures/cans.

[DA_cookie_monstA]

Anodic coatings isn't an insulator, just thought I would say that.

[cobra81li200]

as I read the previous posts:
touring - thinner webbing - less rotational mass - spools up quicker - more punch, less torque, less smooth?
modified - thicker webbing - more rotational mass - spools up slower - less punch, more torque, smoother ?

so I think they are both right, just a different interpretation ???


Ok now here's how it works.

Thick web => more current carried, so a higher magnetic field, so more torque/punch but as the field is higher less speed (exactly the same as with cans).

Thin web => less current carried, lower mag field, less punch but more RPM.

If you compare the 12*1 HS and HT you'll see that the HT has a thicker web than the HS. The difference in mass is massively compensated by the gain in torque for the thicker web to have more punch.

Now about Off Road and Touring, you want more punch on a touring car than on an Off Road car. The first runs on flat and grippy surfaces, the second on bumpy and slippery surfaces, so it's just being logic to say you want torque on touring and smooth on Off Road.

[richard_cree]

The Peak Surikarn Edition had a small proportion of the first batch which were illegal due to manufacturing tollerances. The problem was spotted and sorted before any where released so they are fine now.

The angled slits in the comm increase the timing, meaning you run the endbell with less advance. The net effect of this is a freer reving motor with really good top end performance. I've been really impressed with these motors in TC.

As for touring cars needing more torque, I cant agree with that at all. OK, so if it is slippy then you dont need the torque, but on a typical grass or grooved dirt track you find yourself punching it a lot more in off road than you ever would in TC.

[Dave G]

gotta agree with rich on that,how can you make a motor and say its designed for onroad/offroad when there is so much difference in grip levels at different tracks not to mention the weather...i thinks it more like picking the right characteristic of a motor for your driving style and track conditions and ignore what class its supposed to be made for.
dave

[cobra81li200]

I'm sure that you are aware on the fact that UK is almost the only country where Off Road races on grass. About grooved dirt track, I've never raced (and I have no idea how it looks like) on this surface but I believe that in europe we don't have many of them.

Now most Off Roads races on slippery surfaces (which is the main interest IMO, if you want grip go for a touring ;D), so the two cases you state are almost exceptions among europe, not UK though as I believe there are quite a lot of tracks made of grass and then I agree that you want a really punchy motor.

[Phil C]

Does any1 know how many degrees each mark on the timing chart stand for? i cant figure it out. cheers Phil C.

[DA_cookie_monstA]

You could work it out, find the circumference of the can, divide it by 360, and that gives how many millimetre's per degree, so you could then work out the markings.

[Phil C]

K cheers ill hav a go.

just measured can its 120mm / 360 = 0.333mm
each degree is 0.333mm
each mark is 2mm so apparently
each mark is around 6 degrees.
Does that sound right to you? cheers again Phil C.

[wrx]

think you're bang on there phil,
i read somewhere each mark was going to be 4 deg. but the stickers were printed wrong and it is now more like 6 deg.
cant remember where i saw that now???

[Chrislong]

Mr Cobra guy, what classes do you race?

[MattW]

The off rd motors have the thick web. Like Rich said off rd generally needs more torque IMHO.

[richard_cree]

The off rd motors have the thick web. Like Rich said off rd generally needs more torque IMHO.


Not so humble double A finalist!

[MattW]

Why Thank you ;D
Mental note to self though, must learn how to drive off rd cars over jumps ::)

[cobra81li200]

Mr Cobra guy, what classes do you race?


I no longer race Off Road as there's nothing in my area. My B3's willing to race though, it's been a while since I've fone any Off Road racing, just been bashing.

Maybe Off Road have evolved a lot since I've been racing them though, if you say they need more torque than touring :o

[Chrislong]

Its just what Richard Cree said is bang on, and in the 14 years I have been racing it has always been the case, I know some off-road tracks don't 'look' grippy but with the right tyre and a good setup it is deceiving just how much grip can be found.

Chris

[cobra81li200]

Then you should come to race in france, I've never raced on a really grippy track, unless it was grass.

[axpayne]

The discussion of whether touring cars or buggies need more torque is very interesting, but everyone appears to have overlooked the fact that buggies have slipper clutches to limited the torque.

I believe the view that buggies need more torque comes around because, buggy tracks tend to be tighter with short straights (hence more torque equals quicker accelaration between corners). Out door touring car tracks tend to be more flowing with higher corner speeds therefore a higher rpm is required.

The manufactures produce different ranges to encourage us to buy more motors.

[Chrislong]

Fabien,
Sorry, didn't notice you are a French racer! I suppose your off-road tracks are very much like the Euro's track 2004 in Italy? be interesting to see some pictures, do you have any links.

I think Andrew is right, just a ploy to sell more motors, trying to encourage us innocent guys to splash out on a box full rather than a couple! ha ha. Marketting is a clever tool.

Chris

[cobra81li200]

http://www.petitrc.com/_forumphp/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7333&highlight=reims

This is a brand new track (it's aside from the Rally Car track. I've been there (not to race buggies but touring cars at the second round of the national champ) and I can tell you that the rallycross track (which is made off the same material) is very slippery.

We don't have much tracks by now, most of the racers have switched to touring. indeed I've been out of RC for 2 years when I had to pass my "baccalaureat" and when I got back it was all about touring, when they were only few before.

I will go back to Buggies for sure !

[Gaz_Stanton]

The off rd motors have the thick web. Like Rich said off rd generally needs more torque IMHO.


Definitely. Remember off-road uses larger diameter wheels for a start so more torque needed to get them going.
Then there's the wider tyres with a wider contact patch and the rough track surfaces. Both these make for a much higher rolling resistance.