BRCA Price Limits

[Skiddins]

As a follow on to the thread which was hijacked....

If the economics return to normal in the next year, will we see the price limits come down accordingly, or will they remain?.....much like our taxes in the 'real' world :D

[MikeS]

If the economics return to normal in the next year....
Your hopeful aren't you :eek:


.... will we see the price limits come down accordingly, or will they remain?....
I don't see why they will not be revisited with a view to reducing them once the exchange rates have stabilised again ;)

[mad-wolfie]

we are on the verge of political debate here....

the prices probably are OK... OK for those with a job & a big salary or those with sponsorship behind them.. but for the average joe racer on a low income or someone who has just lost his job or perhaps even a student struggling on a £30 a week training allowance, it is a struggle. RC is supposed to be a cheap hobby.

Think of it this way.. a loaf of bread costs the same price to a millionaire as to a person with no money, but who's going to worry more about finding the money to pay for it & who needs it most?

[terry.sc]

RC is supposed to be a cheap hobby. R/C is a cheap hobby if you want it to be. It's also a very expensive hobby if you want it to be.

I'm someone who has spent a large part of his racing on a low income, by just sticking to necessities you can be reasonably competitive for a lot less than you think.

If you want cheap there's Mardaves. Cheap car, cheap electrics, very low running costs. If you want touring cars then get a basic Tamiya and have fun at your local club with people on a similar budget. If your local club only runs top spec cars and strictly BRCA rules and don't have a budget class then either start a class or find another club that does.

In the long term a club which doesn't cater for beginners and people with small budgets will end up closing as it won't attract new members. As an example there are two clubs in my area, one allows anything so there's a few fast cars with high end chassis (bought cheap on ebay I might add) but most are there for fun with basic Tamiya TT01s with the kit 540 motors. That club is full to capacity. The other club caters for the more serious club racer, everyone runs high end equipment, are low on members and can't attract any new members at all.

If you really want it to be expensive then buy all the kit and do regionals and nationals. At that level though you can't complain about the price of the electrics when you add up the cost of petrol/diesel, hotels, meals, etc.


Regarding the price debate, the prices just couldn't stay the same as last year. The margins are pretty small on a lot of r/c products and thanks to the exchange rate when the trade price is now more than the old retail price we would have ended up with a lot of products priced out of the market.

[mad-wolfie]

Regarding the price debate, the prices just couldn't stay the same as last year. The margins are pretty small on a lot of r/c products and thanks to the exchange rate when the trade price is now more than the old retail price we would have ended up with a lot of products priced out of the market.

Now this is the thing... is that our fault? we are the consumer, so is it our fault that the exchange rate has jumped which has forced prices up, simple answer, no, so why should we penalised by price hikes, especially during a recession? Again, we are verging on the edge of Politics so i'll end there.

As for Tamiya being cheap, well this again is a problem distantly related to the above point i made.. the current power of the Yen has meant that Tamiya prices have jumped by 30% since Christmas.. granted the HobbyCo have done their best to delay the price increases, but it's the same story all over. Talking with the guy in my local hobby shop he says that other prices have gone up even Schumacher a British manufactuer have jumped their prices up... OK they are probably not spending on import/export costs or currency changes but they are no doubt sourcing their materials at inflated prices which reflects on the retail price & overheads.

Besides, it's now cheaper to buy complete RTR's from brands such as Ansmann & Atech than it is to buy a "cheap" Tamiya kit such as a TT-01, but then again if you do buy a cheap Tamiya kit you have to spend money afterwards on hop-ups so it is going to be better in the long run to just buy a TRF or TB-Evo because it will work out cheaper in the end, but as i've said before on forums... no matter how much you spend hopping up a TT-01, it weill still be a TT-01.

Yes you could buy 2nd hand to keep costs down if you want top line stuff at TT-01 prices, but the debate of what to buy comes along again. Yes we all want to go racing, (figuratively speaking) & we all want to go fast for a low price... so why make those prices expensive? As i say i think the underlying problem is that the BRCA have set caps & price limits - but everyrhing on that approved list is all hovering around those prices, this is why the BRCA are seen as money grabbing & interfering. It's no wonder people are jumping ship from TC's & heading to Micro's & even mardaves & 12th scale.

I know this isn't the BRCA's fault, the prices are agreed with retailers & the like & there is probalby very little mark-up (if any) for the retailer, but in the days of credit crunch & recession people don't want to pay money they don't have to when they shouldn't need to, so by the BRCA saying you must have "product A - G" if you want to compete & be "legal" to enter the competition you choose to enter, then the racer finds out that product A costs £90 & the lowest price product G is £89.99, when on the shelves next to the BRCA approved products are items just as good for half the price, then of course the questions get asked & negative attitudes about the BRCA & the sport of RC racing start!

To draw some comparison here, in 1:1 motorsport we've seen the demise of Honda in F1, in WRC Subaru have pulled out & in MotoGP we've lost Kawasaki, all because of running costs & regulations which mean financial difficulties, so those companies put saving money before racing - even the costs of a racing license have been mentioned.. so if those at the top of the motorsport tree can suffer, it's only natural that some motorsport users at the bottom end of the tree (i.e, us) will go through the exact same problems & decide against competing to save money because costs are too high in these days of financial uncertainty.

[Steve Cann]

Racing has never been cheaper...

Lets take cells as an example... For many years 'we' budgeted £100 to buy three new packs of cells at start of season... Sadly because of poor quality from Chinese manufacturers in recent times these cells had to be replaced at mid-season costing a further £100... Last year 'we' decided to get on the Li-Po bandwagon but HAD to keep to same budget... So it was £50 on the pack and a further £50 on a dedicated charger... Now a year on the Li-Po is STILL in serviceable condition so if 'we' chose so we could have a free year battery wise... And we ALWAYS buy BRCA approved items from UK sources... You just need apply some sensible shopping nous...


BTW Similiar for the motor... BL 10.5 BRCA homologated motor has thus far done a full season of TC racing plus a full season of twelfth... I've yet to see one of the 'budget' motors get past two meetings...

This is a GREAT hobby/sport LARGELY because of being well governed by a group of well meaning people... Long may they continue...

[spmcc]

YAWN, this is all getting rather tedious. You pay your money and you take your choice. If you want to compete at the "top end" you'll pay "top end" prices, etc, etc.
Now let's get back to racing.

[mad-wolfie]

Racing has never been cheaper...

On that point i do agree, to a point. 20 years ago I bought a Tamiya Hornet, complete with a 7.2 stick-pack battery, wall charger & Acoms Techniplus radio system. These days I could go out & buy the same car or a modern day equivalent such as a Fighter buggy + a 7.2 stick-pack, wall charger & modern day Acoms Techniplus, but the overall cost would be roughly the same, considering £150 in 1989 was worth a lot more than £150 in 2009.

However back in 1989 we didn't have so many rules & regulations (we didn't really have anything other than 12th scale pancars, mardave or 1:10th buggies) as well as exotic parts to put in your car.. when people talked "brushless" in 1989 it was in reference to being bald, not a motor & the only true electronic component in the car was a ceramic resistor - ESC's were still new fangled things, so you just turned up at the track with what you already had & were pretty much allowed to race.

Even toy grade RC cars were expensive, for £50 you could buy a really shabby quality toy RC car such as a Nikko or Tyco, these days for half the cost you get a toy RC car that is twice as good from the argos book.


BTW Similiar for the motor... BL 10.5 BRCA homologated motor has thus far done a full season of TC racing plus a full season of twelfth... I've yet to see one of the 'budget' motors get past two meetings...

OK i'm going to stop you there... yes i admit, much of the budget range is pants - for example if you pay £5 for a motor, chances are it won't last long, realistically though you'd expect that... for example if you paid 2p for a roll of toilet paper you just know it's highly likely your finger is going to go through it!!

But then a few weeks back i was at the RC shop & a mate of mine bought a brand new BRCA legal Reedy Challenger 19t brushed motor to put in his car because he always used cheap motors that when they wore out he'd bin them, needless to say the Reedy lasted him 2 meetings (6 heat races & a bit of dry running in his living room tops) & now it needs a set of brushes & the comm needs a skim, he's now gone back to using £6 Ansmann motors until he gets his Reedy skimmed & chances are the Reedy will appear on that famous auction website when he gets it back!

Another spanner in the works is all the rebranding or cloning going on these days.. by this i mean there are the same RC products probably made by the same people in China in some backstreet sweatshop, that then these products appear badged up from numerous brands for all the top makes. There is also a degree of cloning. It's not just RC products though that are prone to rebranding or cloning.

So, in conclusion you then see the same item being sold with a different makers badge on them all for different prices. For example, any RTR car you buy usually seems to have the same design of radio transmitter in the box.. a rebadged budget Futaba, likewise a few months ago i bought an Extronix Probe12 ESC which is identical to the Dynamite Tazer 12 ESC & the Etronix was a fiver cheaper, i've also seen the same ESC being sold with a Losi label on it for a more expensive price than i paid. Another example is the Mtroniks speed controllers - made by Mtroniks but you see them being sold with other "makers" labels or even retailer logo's stuck on them for half the cost of the genuine article. Likewise on the subject of cloning, take a look at the Nitrotek 1:10th cars, they are clones of the Tamiya TL-01's. So are we buying budget items & cheap RC parts because we are tight fisted, or because people realise they can buy the same product that costs less with someone else's name on it?

It's now becoming common knowledge that Speed Passion motors are manufactured by Hobbywing - an already famous company among RC aircraft users & not well known to many car users. It is also evident that Hobbywing are selling the exact same item (apart from the livery, the stickers & the box it comes in) with a different makers name on them or with Hobbywing's own name written across them, for a much lower price than those branded with Speed Passion's name on them. Of course then people start to question the fact that the BRCA have put their name on the expensive branded items, when the exact same (although unapproved) item is available with "Joe Bloggs" name on them for half the cost... yes i grant you Schumacher or whoever have paid money to have the Speedpassion onthe BRCA list, but would it really be so bad for the BRCA to recognise the clones.

[Steve Cann]

but would it really be so bad for the BRCA to recognise the clones.



I'm almost embarrassed to post it...

Encourage the manufacturer/importer to submit them for consideration and providing they meet the necessary criteria [as you advise] then they'll find a place on the homologation list... Not that difficult really...

[mad-wolfie]

LOL, Cheers Steve, but that remark was meant to be a little tongue in cheek.. hence no question mark, making it more of a statement than a question :)

[terry.sc]

Encourage the manufacturer/importer to submit them for consideration and providing they meet the necessary criteria [as you advise] then they'll find a place on the homologation list... Not that difficult really...
There's where their argument for the cheap imports falls down. The Hobbywing EZrun ESCs are only licensed for sale in China. You can only buy them from Hong Kong, meaning on one in the UK importing or supporting them and if there's a problem they have to talk to the shop on the other side of the world. Speed Passion have the rights to sell them in the rest of the world, which in the UK means Schumacher provides full back up to repair or replace them if there's a problem. That point is usually forgotten.



The same with the rebadged Mtroniks. I know if an Mtroniks blows up I can contact Mtroniks and can get a replacement quickly either free if under warranty or for a small repair fee within days. These other companies buy them in bulk so get them discounted, if anyone wants to buy a thousand of them I'm sure Mtroniks would give you a good deal. This means they can sell them cheap, but I wouldn't like to try and get them serviced if they broke down as it's nothing to do with Mtroniks. I'm sure Mtroniks would happily sell them retail for less if they thought you would be happy to buy a new one if it blows up.


The complaint is always about the direct comparison between the prices between the vat and duty free prices abroad compared to the UK. The thought that the prices also have to pay the wages of the staff at the importers never crosses their minds.

[PDW]

+1! When will people learn that you get what you pay for. RC is following the rest of the consumer-driven market, where companies rely on people knowing the price of everything, and the value of nothing.

And as for RC never having been cheaper - not gonna last. Just look at the price of any Japanese radio gear now, compared to last year, and wait until the appreciation of the Yuan takes hold. If you want it, buy it in the next two months. Another price limit change from the EB this year is odds-on, in my view.

[Steve Cann]

Another price limit change from the EB this year is odds-on, in my view.




You are wrong ;):)...

[mad-wolfie]

.....if there's a problem they have to talk to the shop on the other side of the world. Speed Passion have the rights to sell them in the rest of the world, which in the UK means Schumacher provides full back up to repair or replace them if there's a problem. That point is usually forgotten.

The complaint is always about the direct comparison between the prices between the vat and duty free prices abroad compared to the UK. The thought that the prices also have to pay the wages of the staff at the importers never crosses their minds.


True, yet the thing is with regards the eZrun / Speed passion point.. eZruns's are currently selling like hotcakes, reading the posts on nearly all the other RC forums that's evident. Reason is simply as it's a very cheap way to get into brushless & get good performance to boot - in fact thanks to the eZrun system you can now go brushless for less cost than than buying an above average quality brushed motor & ESC or for the price of a "genuine" Speed Passion motor.

I'm all for "Buy British" & "support your local shop before buying online" etc but sometimes you do have to put a lower price before after sales support & thinking of others when you don't have much money in your pocket to spend to get what you want to keep up with the Jones'... I'm not saying it's right (or going to be any good for that matter), just simply saying that is how it is - especially in the current financial situation where people are buying faggots instead of buying prime cuts of meat or using shops-own brand products over the leading brands, plus why Primark is making more money than Burtons.

[PDW]

You are wrong ;):)...I was going to say the same thing, Steve, but then realised it would be more in hope than expectation!

As for buying cheap stuff out of the retail trade - knock yourselves out. It seems to be the ready-to-run/fly stuff that is keeping retail going right now, so once that drops off we will find it ever more difficult to get everything. It is just such a short-sighted attitude that's got us into this mess in the first place. Without support from everyone, the retail RC car trade will be less able to support our hobby.

The odd thing about this 'recession' is that for those who have a job, and have not done the short-sighted thing with their borrowings, life is getting more affordable, not less. I appreciate that this will raise the ire of so many people, and expect to get flamed for the next 30 posts, but the price of RC car gear isn't what stops people getting into it (I'm sure Jim told me membership of the BRCA is up a bit this year) it's the availability of the parts in shops, and Clubs to run meetings. Buying 'off-piste' will do more damage now than it might of done in the past.

Just put this post down to the old guy going misty-eyed for the better values of previous years, and for having stuck with manufacturing (despite successive Governments trying to kill it off and building an economy on selling each other insurance and hamburgers) and now finding I am in the driving seat.

Anyway, I do sincerely hope that however people come by their stuff, and whatever I think of that, RC car racing continues to be as resilient in this recession as it has been up to now. Race on! :)

[mad-wolfie]

... it's the availability of the parts in shops, and Clubs to run meetings. Buying 'off-piste' will do more damage now than it might of done in the past.

Just put this post down to the old guy going misty-eyed for the better values of previous years, and for having stuck with manufacturing (despite successive Governments trying to kill it off and building an economy on selling each other insurance and hamburgers) and now finding I am in the driving seat.

this is true & i do agree.. don't shoot the messenger, i was simply saying how it is, not how it should be in my previous post.

I'd sooner buy top line equipment, even if it means paying top dollar.. but there had to be a line drawn between what i (as in "I" the individual) want/need & what i can afford or am prepared to pay.

As i said in a previous post, 1:1 motorsport is going through financial difficulties.. hence we see no Honda in F1 (well done Brawn GP though - bet Honda are kicking themselves now), No Subaru in WRC (all those boy racers will be pleased) & No Kawasaki works team in MotoGP.. so it's only natural in all walks of motorsport - including us mere mortal RCers - the same problems will occur in one form or another.

The thing is though the regulatory bodies such as the FIA & FIM etc are changing their regulations to make the sport more affordable & accessible to those competing in it by banning the most expensive toys (ceramic brakes have been banned from MotoGP & limits have been put on the number of engines teams can use etc) & making it more cost effective to enter... yet I don't see the BRCA following suit.

[slow coach]

i doubt the prices will change, when fuel rocketed the Taxi drivers were demanding a raise in fares and got it, now the fuel has dropped a bit again do we see a drop in fares dont count on it, im sure the rc scene will be similar, what might happen is shops being able to give regular customers a good discount which will help the racers and generate business which will boost profit for them.