cyclone tc handling issues

[Slim_Shady_01]

Iv recently switched to a hot bodies cyclone tc and come accross a couple of handling traits i cant seem to find an answer to so looking for some advice,

the car is the latest TC with kit settings/springs/oil etc with diff front and rear. tyres are the much more sweep 32's using the z1 additive full rear half front. motor is 10.5 brushless.

iv run the same set up at 3 different clubs (one club with 13.5) and at 2 the car was great the other place the car wanted to swap ends on acceleration out of slower corners and through a chicane and the back end would also break loose in the middle of a sweeper.

only major difference is its a lot colder in this hall and the floor is concrete as opposed to the warmer conditions and wood floor usualy found in most community halls, im not sure if this is a major or indeed THE factor in why the car handles this way so any suggestions and/or advice would be much appreciated

[simonc]

Is this racing on carpet?

[Slim_Shady_01]

lol knew id probably missed something, yes its carpet

[A.Wojtecki]

If it is racing on carpet then I would suggest some softer tyres. Personally I like the Vtec 27r's as they give good grip and still last for a reasonable amount of time. Or you could try some Vtec 24r's which offer really super grip but won't last that long at all.

[simonc]

You may have cracked it, it could be a difference in track temperature, especially up where you are! Do you use tyre warmers?

[simonc]

And yes, of course, if it's cold points towards softer tyres.

[Slim_Shady_01]

i tend not to use warmers but will maybe have to give them a try, we have to use the sweep tyres for our main indoor series which is why iv been running on them but will give 27's or 24's a try and see if it makes a difference, the tempreture difference is what i suspected but wanted some alternate opinions, thanks guys, much appreciated

[A Webb]

Sounds to me like your front tyres are over heating i.e to much grip up front and the rear cant compete. You should try either stiffning the front springs to stop weight transfer to the front or maybe change the front roll centres by shortening the front upper camber links and setting front camber to 1 degree. I use a front one way with a 13,5 on carpet and had a similar problem, I found changing the front roll centres made a vast improvement. I would also advise taking the front diff out and using a one way or spool.

[Slim_Shady_01]

tried a number of changes to the rear of the car last night with next to no success, tried more rear droop, changed roll centres (raise and lowered) springs (softer and stiffer) leaning the shocks in as well as no front additive and also warmers (front and rear as well as rear only) and still cant get the rear of the car to grip under acceleration out of tight or hairpin corners, this was with a 13.5 in a hall that is quite warm and had no issues with last week i didnt try a one way or spool as the track was far too tight for either of them in my opinion. :confused:

[Matt Pocknell]

Have you checked if the car is tweaked? Undo all the screws on the top deck, including the bulkhead screws, and re-tighten them while holding the chassis down on a flat board or on some droop blocks.

Matt.

[simonc]

Tweak could be a thing - is it same in left and right corners?

I'd be tempted to get a spool in and set it up around that, it's not as if you're lacking front end at the moment!

Also, another thing to consider is your rear diff smooth and well adjusted?

[Slim_Shady_01]

im not a fan of running a spool and im very reluctant to put one in but it may find its way in soon in desperation lol.

the car does the same on both left and right handers so im 99% sure the car is not tweaked but will check it again to rule it out. as for the diff's, i set my rear to be as loose as i can without it slipping and the front about half to three quarters of a turn tighter than the rear

[Warren]

check your hinge pins (inner) as these do bend from time to time upsetting your rear toe. If your running kit springs make sure the gold ones are on the front. also check your shock oils, make sure you have the rebound you want. You'll probbly find a spool awkward to drive for about 3 races then you'll start to get used to it, i find it easier to drive than all other options. As far as roll centres are, i normally use 3.5mm front/1.5mm rear for low bite carpet in cold conditions ( 4mm front, 2mm rear in high traction conditions ) this may stop your car from overheating your front tyres. Also for indoor i run a 1.5deg front toe block to tone down the steering. 3deg toe on the back. And the big one, make sure your wheel arches are big enough, i can't stress this enough, if your arches catch your wheels this can cause all sorts of upsets and you'll be changing the car forever and a day.

[Slim_Shady_01]

check your hinge pins (inner) as these do bend from time to time upsetting your rear toe. .

checked the pins nothing seems to be binding and everything is moving nice and free, iv also not hit anything in order to bend anything so confident its not that


If your running kit springs make sure the gold ones are on the front. also check your shock oils, make sure you have the rebound you want..

shocks are fine, probably the best iv ever built, took me a while to get my old xray ones air free and usualy several attempts but got the HB ones air free first time, effortless. rebound is also as accurate as iv ever managed to get and im confident it is fine


You'll probbly find a spool awkward to drive for about 3 races then you'll start to get used to it, i find it easier to drive than all other options..

iv run a spool outdoors a few times but found it quite hard on the drivetrain, i was bending driveshafts reguarly and broke a couple of xray multi diff outdrives, run one once indoor and broke 3 driveshafts in 3 runs which is why im very reluctant to try the spool but im running out of options fast


As far as roll centres are, i normally use 3.5mm front/1.5mm rear for low bite carpet in cold conditions ( 4mm front, 2mm rear in high traction conditions ) this may stop your car from overheating your front tyres..

Are these spacers under the inner camber links or under the pivot blocks?


Also for indoor i run a 1.5deg front toe block to tone down the steering. 3deg toe on the back. And the big one, make sure your wheel arches are big enough, i can't stress this enough, if your arches catch your wheels this can cause all sorts of upsets and you'll be changing the car forever and a day.

i dont have the alternate pivot blocks to experimant with but will lay my hands on some soon, body shell appears ok, no tell tale black rubbing marks and i am quite notorious for my slightly oversize arches so shells catching is not a problem iv had over the years.

thanks for your suggestions warren, much appreciated

[Warren]

1.5mm under pivot blocks, and the other spacers under the inner camber link.

[Lee Dyson]

..

[Foyzy]

1.5mm under pivot blocks, and the other spacers under the inner camber link.

Does this just apply to the pivot blocks on the rear of the car Warren? Where do you put these spacers on the front of the car? On the front, the spacers you can buy fit under the front front blocks but not the rear front as the gap between the two screws that go into the blocks from under the chassis are too far apart for the spacers, which don't seem long enough. Am I missing something? Cheers

[Warren]

Does this just apply to the pivot blocks on the rear of the car Warren? Where do you put these spacers on the front of the car? On the front, the spacers you can buy fit under the front front blocks but not the rear front as the gap between the two screws that go into the blocks from under the chassis are too far apart for the spacers, which don't seem long enough. Am I missing something? Cheers

Dont worry, put a 1.5mm spacer under all pivot blocks, ff, fr, rf and rr.

Use these parts

http://www.mirageracing.com/piw.php?partNo=HPZ816

Any updates on handling problems?

[Slim_Shady_01]

Any updates on handling problems?

Not got the chance to run the car again till friday so will post back after then.

cheers, kev

[tc3team]

+1 with the tyres, i'd definatly try softer tyres before trying anything else.

if its cold and you're on a hard compound tyre it wont grip. 10.5 is a lot of power to be putting down with tyres that wont grip = swapping ends.

[CCFM]

Well ive read this thread, an no one has mention droop or a slipping diff.

The Sweep 32s are a great tire, but do require you to equal out the droop, or if anything reverse the droop, as SWEEP have a very soft tire wall, and therefore roll over and can cause the car to grip roll, or make the car front endy. Do not use harder springs, as this will make the tires over work.

You need to remove the weight transfer from the front of the car, so as to balance the car out. the rule of thumb is generally say 5.5 at the front, with 5 on the rear, reverse this and you will be surprised at the difference, you may have a little less steering, but its easier to drive a car with understeer than oversteer.

Use a spool but go over to the WCE drive shafts, you will find them much more hardy with a spool

Make sure your rear diff is not slipping, as this can also be a contributory factor to the car swapping ends, or at least being very squirmy coming out of a corner

Hope this helps you

Cheers Malc

[Slim_Shady_01]

+1 with the tyres, i'd definatly try softer tyres before trying anything else.

if its cold and you're on a hard compound tyre it wont grip. 10.5 is a lot of power to be putting down with tyres that wont grip = swapping ends.

i understand what you are saying about softer tyres and i have some on the car to try tonight and i expect to find a bit of an immprovement but its not going to help my case when i have to use the sweep 32's on sunday as a control tyre and im back to square one.

thanks for all the replys folks, you have all given me plenty suggestions to think about and try. will see how things go in a hour or so. :o

[CCFM]

but its not going to help my case when i have to use the sweep 32's on sunday as a control tyre and im back to square one.

Slim_Shady :)
Take it from me, the tips I have given you will work, as I am the organiser of Rug Racers and have been running these tires since February, and have done many things to the tires and car set up to make them work in all temps :)

Another tip, would be to put the red MM additive on all of the rear of the tire, and half way to the inside of the front tire, and put tire warmers on at 30 degrees, not so much to warm the tires up, but to help the additive to soak in, and to make the plastic of the wheel more pliable, especially if you SWEEPS have been in the boot of a car, where it is cold. ;)

Cheers Malc :cool:

ps also check your thrust race, depending on the type you have in your car, some are prone to collapse.

[Lee Dyson]

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[dodgy]

do your rear diff up abit, sounds like its too loose to me.

[Slim_Shady_01]

Well i run the car again tonight and its now on the right track, all i changed was the front pivot block to a 1.5 and its made a ill handling car a lot better, it still needs a little bit of fine fettling to get it exactly as i want it but i now have a car that i can drive without worrying about it swapping ends, i think my very poor condition tyres were probably not helping matters tonight, fresh set on sunday should answer all hopefully, thanks for all the advice offered folks:D

[Mark Stiles]

I've quickly skimmed through the posts on this thread, and if I were you I'd take the most notice of what Malc is saying; he's not as stupid as he looks! :p

Having a tight diff is absolutely essential; if this isnt right then you may as well not bother with anything else!

You should be able to hold the spur and one rear wheel and only just turn the other wheel.

Making setup changes from the kit settings will end up meaning you chase your tail. the car should basically work with the kit setup. Setup changes are to fine tune the car, not solve an inherent problem with the cars behaviour.

So do as malc says; check the diff and maybe play with the droop a bit.

Hope this helps fella.

[CCFM]

and if I were you I'd take the most notice of what Malc is saying; he's not as stupid as he looks! :p

So do as malc says; check the diff and maybe play with the droop a bit.

Hope this helps fella.

Thanks NoBBy Ya MuM :p

[Blueskieshlg]

After yet another disappointing race meeting with the Cyclone TC i would like some much valued help.

Spec:-
Car is a Cyclone TC, front spool, SWEEP 32 tyres, 13.5 class, HPI red springs Front, HPI white springs Rear, 1.6 Front swap bar, 1.4 Rear sway bar. 4mm Droop front, 3mm droop Rear, 5.5mm Front ride height 6mm Rear ride height, Running on High Grip Carpet indoor.

Problem:- GRIP ROLL.

1. I stiffened the car up to stop Chassis roll, no success
2. Added Chassis front torsion posts for maximum stiffness, no success
3. Sat front springs up, car bounced before rolling over
4. Layed font shock down, put medium front sway bar back in to softern up, no success.
5. Spend six rounds trying to the car to stop GRIP ROLLING and failed

Any help would be greatly appreciated as im out of ideas and very disillusioned with the car.

Cheers

[jonny123]

If i was u i would set up the car to the andy moore carpet wars setup which is pretty much standard and work from there. Put your gold and silver springs on i has have never heard anyone with a cyclone go anything stiffer than gold.
From what i know the sweep tyres are nothing really differant and i cant imagine you should have to change your setup to these tyres. Put 1.4 roll bar on the front and 1.2 on the rear.

And yes a tight diff is very important. :D

I run at a club were the grip is pretty high and some people even go softer springs than gold and silver (pink,blue)

And if i was you i would tottaly rebuild the car. It may sound pointless as you think its your setup/tyres thats the problem. But if you rebuild your car and go back to a standard setup eg. andy moore carpet wars then you wont have a problem.

Good Luck
and take your time:D:cool:

[A.Wojtecki]

I totally agree that you should go back to the standard setup. Running on high grip indoor carpet I have a setup that works for me which I barely ever change and is quite similar to the kit setup.
As was already suggested 1.4 mm front and 1.2 mm rear roll bars, I would go for pink front springs and blue rear springs, lower your ride height to 5 mm front and 5.5 mm rear and increase the droop to 5.5 mm at the front and 5 mm at the rear.
The cyclone seems to like having the shocks laid down - mine are in position 2 at the front and position 3.5 at the back. Finally you could try a one-way if you haven't already to see if you prefer the feel of it - rubber on carpet is about the only place that the are used anymore.

HTH
Alexander

[Blueskieshlg]

thanks for the advice, Cheers

[blueboy]

hi you guys you all seem expert on setting this tc up !!!,i have just brought one and am very confussed with all this spool and diff business, i run a controlled 13.5 brushless and am only allowed to use carpet dragons as a controlled tyre !!! its on a very tight carpet track , with only 2 small straights ,i am running the complete standard out of the box setup and the spool (i think this is pins in ) has already broke a front drive shaft !!! also every body at the club keeps telling me to put a front diff any advice would be great
phil

[CCFM]

hi you guys you all seem expert on setting this tc up !!!,i have just brought one and am very confussed with all this spool and diff business, i run a controlled 13.5 brushless and am only allowed to use carpet dragons as a controlled tyre !!! its on a very tight carpet track , with only 2 small straights ,i am running the complete standard out of the box setup and the spool (i think this is pins in ) has already broke a front drive shaft !!! also every body at the club keeps telling me to put a front diff any advice would be great
phil

Hi Phil
If your running the TC Cyclone version, then use the WCE drive-shafts as they are far stronger. Personally I can't get on with a diff , as I like to drive on power, and that what the spool allows you to do :)
Malc

[jampot]

I agree with malc spool is best allround by far, but if it's a tight track with lots of tight corners you will find the spool is to harsh on the car in terms of mechanical pressure. the diff in this case is better just run it tighter. J

[Tim Fry]

My TC is almost box standard and works excellent on carpet with rubber tyres.
All I have changed is I have stood the rear shocks up 1 hole and put the 1.5 deg front toe block on thats it!!

I would defo agree with the comments here and go back to box setup and then go from there.