Stock/entry level kit & the BRCA

[mad-wolfie]

I like many RCers got into this hobby by buying my 1st car a few years ago & the 1st car i ever owned was a Tamiya kit. These days many new RCers get into the sport by buying TT-01's & other entry level cars from the same manufacturer.

Looking on the BRCA list of bodyshells, motors etc I notice there is a lack of Tamiya stuff on there & i'm wondering why?. I was talking with another RC racer the other day who also couldn't understand it.

I understand there has to be a line drawn between "professionalism" & the entry level status of the sport, after all if you turn up at the BRCA nationals with a stock TT-01 with a stock RS540 motor, stock tyres etc then you would not exactly be regarded as "competitive" & it would lbe like Lewis Hamilton turning up at Silverstone for the British Grand-prix with a Sinclair C5. Likewise if you flip the coin over, you couldn't turn up to compete at the Tamiya Eurocup with a TRF415 fitted with a brushless motor but you can race with what is technically non BRCA approved machinery.

But then for people who want to get into the sport at grass roots level, that have perhaps only got a £200 tamiya car & the basics, it's a bit of an inconvenience if they were to turn up at a local track 1 night or 1 weekend in the hope of starting racing, only to be told by an official that they can't as their car is unsuitable because the motor/shell/chassis/tyres etc don't meet with the strict BRCA rules, then the new driver may be put of racing for life & regard RC racers as being rather stuck-up.

Many youngsters who have played with RC cars (or even their dads who are experimenting) may well want to get into racing as the next rung on the ladder (so to speak) & for a young driver to swap their car when their financial main income is Christmas presents, pocket money & perhaps a paper-round, buying a more "professional" car such as a Schumacher or an Associated may not be an option.. although the car they own may be perfectly race legal in the Tamiya Eurocup series or at other BRCA affiliated clubs that are limited to 27t & constrain users to plastic tub cars on safety grounds or because they have a younger clientelle.

However, i think it's a bit of a mystery the fact that Tamiya stock motors (RS540, sport tuned) or silvercans (such as the Ansmann Clash motors) or lexan moulded Tamiya made Bodyshells aren't included onto the BRCA list or at least recognised - at least in the form of a different catagory, after all some clubs are running limited capacity racing which are limiting drivers to 27t & stock entry level plastic-tub cars. Surely the basic silvercan spec motors & Eurocup legal shells etc should be included on the BRCA list or on a sub-list if only as a B-graded item or as a dispensation for encoraging fresh faces & youngsters coming into the sport.

[Steve Cann]

Rather than in depth...

Tamiya products don't feature on homologation lists simply because they don't submit them for inclusion...

As to why you'll need to ask them...

[MarkB]

Interesing points Ian, that are more specific to the Touring car sections (general or BRCA TC) than a general BRCA Q&A section.

So if Jim as section moderator will tolerate one response, then we'll move this to the Touring section(s)... ;)

Do we want to encourage brand new racers still learning to drive recently bought Tamiya kits to race at 2-day BRCA Nationals?

Seems to me the answer for many reasons is no.

Do we want to encourage brand new racers still learning to drive those same kits to race at their local clubs?

Again in my view the answer is yes. Lots more support and time to help new racers, often classes specifically for "box stock" cars.

Do we want to encourage those racers to compete in larger meetings when they gain confidence?

YES! I have and will continue to encourage the use of inter-club and regional series as the right path to follow here. Or the BRCA Juniors for ounger racers which adopts a more flexible appoach to rules. Or excellent begginers meetings hosted by clubs like WLRC (good work Steve!)

To re-use your analogy, did any professional racer driver turn up at a BTCC (National) or F1 (Internaional) meeting with the first kart or car they raced?

No. They learned their craft. Worked their way up through progressivly more challenging cars and series. And didn't go in at the deep end, feel out of their depth and give up on the spot.

Happy to discuss thise further, over on the TC sections / in person / at the section AGM.

Thanks
Mark Burgess
BRCA 1/10th Electric Circuit Section Secretary & Safety Officer

[mad-wolfie]

Thanks Mark,

I echo what you are saying in that i probably am being a bit biased towards tourers, however this is probably because these days that seems to be the way of entry level & grass-roots racers these days, 20 years ago it was Tamiya Grasshoppers & Hornets that people coming into RC were buying, these days it's TT-01's as the shift has gone from 2WD buggies to 4WD road/touring cars, so no doubt if i was making this comment in 1988 as opposed to 2008 it would be biased towards 2wd buggies & of course the only electric road racing back then was in 12th scale which was more for the experienced or serious racer.

I do get your reasons that we wouldn't want the TORC series or the BTCC etc to competed with £100 plastic-tub cars with silvercan motors etc, but there has to be a catagory of racing for encouraging the younger drivers & I wouldn't expect drivers who can barely race to jump in at the deep end 1st. OK i used the Tamiya Eurocup as an example, but in saying that I know drivers who are currently racing with the more elaborate top-end cars such as HB, Schumacher etc & are considering buying a couple of cheap Tamiya's to have a bash in the Eurocup, as it's more of a drivers championship & not a championship where the people on lower budgets are going to be left behind by the drivers who have the best of everything, which to me is what makes real racing if everyone is of an equal status & the big advantage has been taken away. i suppose from this I could ask the question why are the BRCA not doing their own version of the Eurocup with standard equipment but instead concentrating on the high-end level of the sport.

I can see the point of what Tamiya or whoever don't submit equipment for inclusion etc but common sence says if the cheap entry level racing cars all come with stock Mabuchi RS540 motors as a standard motor, then surely the motor should be automatically on the approved list, if only as I said as a B-graded item & if it (be "it" a motor, a shell, a set of tyres etc) is legal in AN-Other race series, the BRCA should recognise that if only for club racing or beginners championship status. .... or is it doen to the fact that Money talks in the BRCA?

[terry.sc]

But then for people who want to get into the sport at grass roots level, that have perhaps only got a £200 tamiya car & the basics, it's a bit of an inconvenience if they were to turn up at a local track 1 night or 1 weekend in the hope of starting racing, only to be told by an official that they can't as their car is unsuitable because the motor/shell/chassis/tyres etc don't meet with the strict BRCA rules, then the new driver may be put of racing for life & regard RC racers as being rather stuck-up.This actually has no direct connection with the BRCA.

The strict BRCA rules are there only for national and regional championships. If a club wants to use the same rules for their regular club meetings is entirely down to the club and its members who choose to run to them. I do know some clubs act like this, usually they die out when there are no new members to replace the old members when they quit.

I would consider any club official preventing any newcomers from racing because their car doesn't meet BRCA rules as being rather stupid as this will only discourage new members which any club needs to attract for it's long term existence.
Most clubs will welcome new members whatever they drive, quite often running specific novice classes restricted to TT-01s and quite often to the 540 motors as well to encourage the new racers into the sport. Personally I can't think of any club in my area that would not allow someone to race at a club meeting because they didn't have a 'BRCA legal' car and I certainly know of one club where the majority of racers use either TT-01s with 540s or Sportwerks Recoils (again no BRCA class for them) over and above a small minority who are BRCA legal.

[terry.sc]

I do get your reasons that we wouldn't want the TORC series or the BTCC etc to competed with £100 plastic-tub cars with silvercan motors etc, but there has to be a catagory of racing for encouraging the younger drivers & I wouldn't expect drivers who can barely race to jump in at the deep end 1st. Surely this is club racing that happens all over the country every week. They might not be racing in a national championship but only a minority race in the bigger meetings. There are also an awful lot of drivers who are prepared to spend an awful lot of money on high end equipment just to club race.


I suppose from this I could ask the question why are the BRCA not doing their own version of the Eurocup with standard equipment but instead concentrating on the high-end level of the sport.The BRCA is responsible for organising the highest level of racing in the UK, anything else anyone can organise, such as the STCC, TORC, BTCC, etc and each championship can create their own totally different rules like the Tamiya Eurocup and the Kyosho World Cup. If someone wants to organise an entry level kit national championship they are free to do so.

It seems to me you are suggesting the BRCA should organise a national championship for entry level kits. If you are racing in a national series buying the car is not the most expensive part, the travelling and accommodation will cost you more along with the running expenses such as new motors and tyres to start with for each event. If you can afford to travel for a national championship you can afford a high end kit and your driving should be to a high standard. Unlike the Eurocup a BRCA sanctioned meeting cannot be restricted to one manufacturer, if the Maverick Strada or A-Tech ATX proves to be the faster car then anyone turning up with a TT-01 will have to buy a new car to be competitive, so it all starts getting expensive again.


I can see the point of what Tamiya or whoever don't submit equipment for inclusion etc but common sence says if the cheap entry level racing cars all come with stock Mabuchi RS540 motors as a standard motor, then surely the motor should be automatically on the approved list, if only as I said as a B-graded item The problem with this is that stock 540 motors that come in kits have anything from a 30 turn all the way down to a 12 turn wind. Remove the sticky label on some of them and without dismantling it you can't tell which is which. This is why the BRCA only puts motors on their lists that have been sent to them to check they meet the rules set out by them.

if it (be "it" a motor, a shell, a set of tyres etc) is legal in AN-Other race series, the BRCA should recognise that if only for club racing That is down to individual clubs and isn't controlled by the BRCA. I think you are suggesting that the BRCA should make a set of rules specifically for club racing. Unless you insist that all UK clubs(whether BRCA affiliated or not) run to these rules they are pointless as the BRCA has no control over any club in the UK.

[Jim Spencer]

This actually has no direct connection with the BRCA.

The strict BRCA rules are there only for national and regional championships. If a club wants to use the same rules for their regular club meetings is entirely down to the club and its members who choose to run to them. I do know some clubs act like this, usually they die out when there are no new members to replace the old members when they quit.

I would consider any club official preventing any newcomers from racing because their car doesn't meet BRCA rules as being rather stupid as this will only discourage new members which any club needs to attract for it's long term existence.
Most clubs will welcome new members whatever they drive, quite often running specific novice classes restricted to TT-01s and quite often to the 540 motors as well to encourage the new racers into the sport. Personally I can't think of any club in my area that would not allow someone to race at a club meeting because they didn't have a 'BRCA legal' car and I certainly know of one club where the majority of racers use either TT-01s with 540s or Sportwerks Recoils (again no BRCA class for them) over and above a small minority who are BRCA legal.

Totally spot on - The ONLY rules in the handbook that apply to club meetings, indeed ALL meetings, are the 2 pages of General rules right at the front of the book - everything else if for Nationals.
Unless adopted by somebody for their series at their choice

10/10 Terry :D

[mad-wolfie]

I echo the points above, after all many clubs wouldn't be able to operate if it was operating just on the grounds of attracting the racing elite & taking a more relaxed stance on the rules. Although ive not had experience of such clubs myself, i do beleive they do exist.. i know from the word on grapevine there are "some" clubs out there that seem to look down on people & fail to acknowledge those who would perhaps turn up with a 20 year old car or are using a £100 car such as an Ansmann or a Tamiya or don't come with approved kit suitable for racing in the nationals, so many younger drivers or amateur drivers come away feeling a bit peeved that they get no help from the club organisers or the more professional drivers which is the main reason they have pehaps gone along, but as you say they won't turn the amateur drivers away as they are spending money, they are just made to feel unwelcome - anyway that is a topic for discussion in another thread.

However to the new BRCA member with a TT-01, a Tamiya shell & a sport tuned motor fitted to the car along with Tamiya wheels/tyres, upon reading the BRCA handbook & going over the amalgimation lists on the BRCA website does paint a rather different picture than what they have probably already read in the Tamiya Radio control guidebook. Which is where i was saying some people may well get the wrong end of the stick, give up on racing & stick to playing around in car-parks & driveways.

Plus as i say (i know I keep using Tamiya as an example) if you look on the rules table for the Eurocup most of the rules are for what are probably the most commonly sold RC cars & components in the land bought by amateurs with intentions of going racing with them, yet my main concern & my main reason for making this post is those components appear as not recognised by the BRCA as "legal to use for a premier race series in the UK", i.e. in a any race series raced on the same tracks as the official BRCA events. OK in a head-to-head race with a Eurocup regulation car & a car set-up from the BTCC regulation we don't need a mathematician to tell us it's going to be a case of the BTCC car will win hands down due to the more sophisticated nature of the cars, but then is this about rules or just a case of the lower grade racing series being kept seperate from the BRCA.

Yes RC can be an expensive hobby, but it should also be a hobby where if you want to only put a small amount of money into it such as a couple of hundred quid - be it if you are on a low income or have limited funds to play with because you are still at school or a student, or just in it for fun, then it should in theory at least, be possible to compete & be recognised to enter any suitable race series & you should be made to feel welcomed in any race genre you wish to enter into.

[Jim Spencer]

Hi Ian

You have this 'legality' thing backwards.

The rules list out what requirements there are for a product to be homologated, it's down to the manufacturers to submit their products to be included.

I have no doubt that Tamiya make products that fit the rules, if they, or you, want that product on a homologation list then it needs to be submitted by somebody.

It's definatly not the case that anybody goes trawling to see what products are out there that fit the rules, it works the other way around.

Don't forget that 'The BRCA' is a club too, we're all it's members and 'we' create the rules, so the rules should reflect what the majority want, therefore thats why the handbook is 70% rules for Nationals, and a tiny bit of rules for clubs.
That's the way the vast majority of racers see it - we have detailed rules for major meetings and basic safety ones only for club meetings - but those detailed rules have to be communicated hence they're in the book.

If a club is failing to communicate that information properly, then that club's members need to address it - if they think it's a problem.

[NiMo]

I know from the word on grapevine there are "some" clubs out there that seem to look down on people & fail to acknowledge those who would perhaps turn up with a 20 year old car or are using a £100 car such as an Ansmann or a Tamiya or don't come with approved kit suitable for racing in the nationals, so many younger drivers or amateur drivers come away feeling a bit peeved that they get no help from the club organisers or the more professional drivers which is the main reason they have pehaps gone along.

Little confused here, as you seem to connect Nationals and Club racing as one item?

My club does actually cater for such cars like you mention, i wont go in to detail here, but ....
A HB Cyclone on proper racing tyres manages 13 laps, whilst an out the box Tamiya Mini (M-Chassis) with bearings, and still running the kit tyres manages 12 laps
OK so not National stuff, but perfect for entry level racers at club level.

[mad-wolfie]

Hi Ian

You have this 'legality' thing backwards.

The rules list out what requirements there are for a product to be homologated, it's down to the manufacturers to submit their products to be included.

I have no doubt that Tamiya make products that fit the rules, if they, or you, want that product on a homologation list then it needs to be submitted by somebody.

It's definatly not the case that anybody goes trawling to see what products are out there that fit the rules, it works the other way around.

Thanks Jim, i think that covers pretty much what i want to know & thought all along, however i'm still a little concerned.. OK perhaps not so much having the amalgimation list with every motor/shell etc for every occasion or race series, as to put every component onto a list would take until doomsday & would only create confusion, but as I say an "A-list" for club & national BRCA events featuring approved & perhaps a "B-list" for motors/shells etc could or at least in my opinion "should" be considered .. it doesn't even have to be a "list" as such, just a dispensation made up of the most commonly purchased or kit standard components, such as a dispensation saying that lexan shells that with tamiya/ansmann etc that are included with kits are considered "race legal" for club purposes, but not at BRCA recognised race series.

Technically speaking IMHO if a motor/shell is legal to use in the Eurocup or any non BRCA race series taking place in the UK, on UK soil under BRCA type conditions then surely the component parts that are allowed, even though we understand it's not BRCA approved or on the BRCA list, it should still be deemed as "race legal" by the BRCA in all BRCA affiliated clubs & at club level open events as well as its "parent" race series. i.e a component may have not been "approved" by the BRCA, but simply "known" or "recognised" by the BRCA to be fit for the purpose to use in racing where neccesary or at the clubs discretion. OK it may be hard to Police what shells/motors are legal etc which is why i said "club discretion" basically if a diver can prove that a shell/motor etc is legal to use in a recognised UK race series or comes as a standard part from the original kit, then surely it should be recognised as "race legal" if only for small level events.



Little confused here, as you seem to connect Nationals and Club racing as one item?

My club does actually cater for such cars like you mention, i wont go in to detail here, but ....
A HB Cyclone on proper racing tyres manages 13 laps, whilst an out the box Tamiya Mini (M-Chassis) with bearings, and still running the kit tyres manages 12 laps
OK so not National stuff, but perfect for entry level racers at club level.

Apologies if i raised confusion, i wasn't being specific to any event as i'm not being specific, more generally speaking. As i said previously, if i was making this thread 20 years ago i'd be using Hornets & Grasshoppers as opposed to TT-01's & ARE1's as an example.

I know locally there is a small club - basically operating in someone's backyard that I believe has BRCA affiliation status & they limit their uses to 27t motors & plstic tub cars such as TT-01's & ARE-1's mainly on safety grounds & to encourage the younger or less experienced side of the sport,

likewise my main club allows buggies to run with tourers OK this does raise a few grumbles among some of the TC drivers which makeup the majority as the buggies tend to just drive over trackside barriers instead of colliding with them & in any collison with a tourer the buggy always seems to fare better, but the club know if they get 20 drivers turn up on a race night & only 1 or perhaps 2 people are using buggies, then they can't let the 1 buggy race against itself, so they simply intergrate them & put them into different classes. It's the same for Micro, 12th scale users etc etc & drivers are classed more on their ability than driving a particular vehicle

In saying that i'm seriously considering taking a step back & buying a cheap entry level car to use at the local club (before you say it this is not the reason behind my raising this debate).. OK the car won't be spectacular &will be limkted, but no doubt it will have a BRCA legal 19t motor, a BRCA approved shell & BRCA spec tyres fitted to it when i race it & i certainly won't be taking it to enter the BTCC (unless i REALLY need to), but i get what you are saying... One time i ended up racing with my step-daughters bashing car as my race cars were awaiting parts & i got a consistent 18laps out of it, despite the fact it was a basic £150 RTR car that had a 23t ansmann clash motor in it & i was on full throttle throughout the race (even on the tight corners), where usually with my 19t Mi2 / TRF415 i get anything between 15 & 22 laps & have to use a lot more throttle control control depending on how i use the sticks.

I've seen £100 near-standard TT-01's with 23t tamiya motors going head-to-head with the likes of Mi3's & RDX's with 3.5bl motors & the TT-01 has come on top, simply as they are driven by a better pilot & the fact the track layout & shape means people with powerful cars often have to turn their output down & the main reason i'm considering a step back is for that reason, why should I use my top-level car when i can never get it to it's full potential & if i clout a barrier it is going to cost me £40 in wishbones & driveshafts every few weeks, where a cheaper car will not be so brittle & in theory should cost less in repairs & be just as good on tight, twisty tracks where driver skill comes before having a powerful car that goes at warp factor 6 down the striaghts.

[Jim Spencer]

just a dispensation made up of the most commonly purchased or kit standard components, such as a dispensation saying that lexan shells that with tamiya/ansmann etc that are included with kits are considered "race legal" for club purposes, but not at BRCA recognised race series.

They already are.



, it should still be deemed as "race legal" by the BRCA in all BRCA affiliated clubs & at club level open events as well as its "parent" race series.

As above they already are - just not Nationals and then only because nobody has sent them in for testing..



then surely it should be recognised as "race legal" if only for small level events.

Once again they already are.


Hi

excuse the edited quotes - you type so much :D

We're getting there now.

There is no nead for a list of what's 'race legal' for club events as the answer is:-
If its under 1m long, weighs less than 20kg's and is under 30cc engine capacity - You can race it - if your club wants you too.
So as far as the Association is concerned they're 'Race Legal' now..

You're thinking that there needs to be a list for clubs to work too - and there isn't - clubs sort themselves out to whatever suits their members at their clubs, they can race whatever they feel like racing.

The association doesn't do rules for club racing (other than basic safety)

A few folk have suggested that some of the sections should have 'club construction rules' but it's never got further than a discussion at the AGM, as the clubs seem quite happy doing their own thing.
But that's not to say you can't bring the subject up again - feel free.

Dont forget though it won't happen unless you propose it and then champion the cause - all too often good ideas die because the person suggesting them isn't prepared to do it.

[Steve Cann]

it should still be deemed as "race legal" by the BRCA in all BRCA affiliated clubs & at club level open events as well as its "parent" race series.



As I think you maybe... Implying that the BRCA should dictate to clubs as to what can or can't be used at 'club' meetings... Don't think clubs would take to kindly to this... And might lead to some dis-associating themselves from the 'association'...

[Jim Spencer]

As I think you maybe... Implying that the BRCA should dictate to clubs as to what can or can't be used at 'club' meetings... Don't think clubs would take to kindly to this... And might lead to some dis-associating themselves from the 'association'...

You're not wrong there..
Hence:-

You're thinking that there needs to be a list for clubs to work too - and there isn't - clubs sort themselves out to whatever suits their members at their clubs, they can race whatever they feel like racing.

The association doesn't do rules for club racing (other than basic safety)

It would also kill innovation - new national classes come from the developments and ideas of clubs, without that innovation the sport's dead long term.

[Oliver]

Just to add something to this discussion - The vast majority of series/clubs (outside of nationals) do effectively create their own "lists" of legal products.

Its the brilliant phrase "commercially available" - Take for example the STCC series. You can use any motor, cells and bodyshells that are "commercially available"

That means if you can buy it easily, you can use it. If you can't go buy one, you can't use it. Makes everything wonderfully simple without the need to research/update a full "list" every day!

[mad-wolfie]

As I think you maybe... Implying that the BRCA should dictate to clubs as to what can or can't be used at 'club' meetings... Don't think clubs would take to kindly to this... And might lead to some dis-associating themselves from the 'association'...


Not at all. All i am saying is that I agree there has to be some ground rules somewhere & that the BRCA amalgamation listings only state what the BRCA have approved & not what you can actually use to race with, basically implying that if it's not on the list you can't use it. e.g. I don't see an RS540 silvercan on any list or a dispensation to say that I can race at club level with a stock/standard kit included motor installed - basically the same motor from the original manufacturers kit for that make/model of car, that has perhaps been approved by the governing body of a non BRCA race series, so therefore 1 would have to assume it is not race legal.

Hence my suggested solution of having an A-list & a B-list the A-list is following the same principles as the current list system, but then i would like to see a B-list as well because what I'd like to see is a bit of recognition somewhere in official BRCA documentatioin that components on high commercial demand or used in non BRCA sanctioned events are "recognised" by the association as "race legal" for use should the circumstances require it.

I'm not saying i want to see Silvercans appear on the approved list, simply that there is a clause written somewhere to say that, OK these aren't aproved but have been deemed "race legal" by the BRCA - therefore on the face of it you are covered. Think of it this way, if i had to claim on my BRCA insurance (as after all i'm a BRCA member & covered by the associations insurance), could the claim be thrown out because my car wasn't fitted with a BRCA approved shell or had a stock motor?? now that does raise concerns.

OK hypothetically speaking, Yes i "can" (but wouldn't) turn up at my local club with a TT-01 with a Tamiya bodyshell with blacked out windows, a "non approved" Sport tuned Tamiya motor & a set of standard Tamiya tyres to race it if i so wished - there is nothing stopping me & the club are relaxed enough to allow it & they would probably stick me in with the numpties class, however the concern I have is that one day i may go to see some relations for a few days who live 10, 100, 1000 miles away (OK I'm exaggerating a little, but the principle is the same) & take in some RC racing at the club local while i'm there.. the fact remains I "could" be told i couldn't race my TT-01 there club if there was some old stick-in-the-mud or fuddy-duddy saying it's "not race legal" because the shell, tyres, motor aren't on the BRCA list, when in the eyes of the Tamiya Eurocup, it's a perfectly race-worthy car & 100% race legal.

Nothing I can find is down in writing & all the emphasis is placed on the approved components as the BRCA don't appear on the surface to recognise entry level or commercial graded components in the same regard as the stuff the pro's use. hope this clears things up a bit more.

[BigBob]

Couple of points Ian:

I have run club(s) for many years and it is exactly the 'freebooting' spirit that has made those clubs successful that the BRCA's interference would stifle.

I KNOW what our members want to race in OUR club - last thing I need is for a club elsewhere in the country that has a specific problem squeezing legislation through at the AGM that would prevent our members running what THEY want.

Local rules for local problems.

You seem to have difficulty in grasping the concept that apart from mainly safety rules that apply to all meetings the rules you read in the Handbook ONLY APPLY TO NATIONALS.

If the BRCA ever started dictating to clubs what rules/classes they should run to then I'd be the first to pull our club out of the BRCA. The BRCA after all is an umbrella organisation or association of clubs not some dictatorship that should tell us what we can or can't run.



BB

[mad-wolfie]

Cheers Bob, nice to know that, the BRCA aren't this "big brother" operation, i think we can all recognise that, but there are perhaps some out there who think that they are, especially if they start imposing rules on us, but it does make me think sometimes if I go to buy a new bodyshell I "must" only buy a BRCA approved shell from the list as that is the way it is written, but as you say this is just for the national events & as I say I could turn up at my local club with pretty much anything i like (within reason) be it a £600 car with all the top end hop-ups or a £20 car boot bargain. I plan on taking part in more of the nationals & the larger events anyway, so tend to stick to what's on the list anyway, although for club racing i do tend to downscale a bit buying cheap motors & using old shells or shells that haven't been cut to the regulations or tyres that are suited to the task rather than what is recommended or used for the nationals.

However can i draw your attentions to this small point I made in my previous reply which i think sort of sums up my whole point quite nicely.


I'm not saying i want to see Silvercans appear on the approved list, simply that there is a clause written somewhere to say that, OK these aren't aproved but have been deemed "race legal" by the BRCA - therefore on the face of it you are covered. Think of it this way, if i had to claim on my BRCA insurance (as after all i'm a BRCA member & covered by the associations insurance), could the claim be thrown out because my car wasn't fitted with a BRCA approved shell or had a stock motor?? now that does raise concerns.

[spmcc]

I'm sorry but you really have the wrong idea, as Bob said, a club can do whatever it likes. If it's affiliatted to the BRCA fine. But your pre-occupation with getting "parts" on a BRCA list is a total waste of time and energy for all concerned. If a club meeting is run to "BRCA" rules 99 times out of a 100 it means weight, that's about all.
If you are proposing to venture out into the big world of Nationals, TORC, STCC, BTCC etc check "their" rules first and if you have any problems "translating" these to your current car, speak, e-mail or ask someone who already does the series, don't immediatly grab the BRCA handbook and look at the current homolagation lists.

[mad-wolfie]

I'm sorry but you really have the wrong idea, as Bob said, a club can do whatever it likes. If it's affiliatted to the BRCA fine. But your pre-occupation with getting "parts" on a BRCA list is a total waste of time and energy for all concerned. If a club meeting is run to "BRCA" rules 99 times out of a 100 it means weight, that's about all.
If you are proposing to venture out into the big world of Nationals, TORC, STCC, BTCC etc check "their" rules first and if you have any problems "translating" these to your current car, speak, e-mail or ask someone who already does the series, don't immediatly grab the BRCA handbook and look at the current homolagation lists.

So what you are basically saying is ignore the lists, ignore the handbook (i'll remember that when my car fails scrutineering due to the wing being too big or not having enough ground clearence) & do whatever your chosen club/chosen race series says as that is the BRCA way..

in which case what is the point of having the lists & the handbook? I sence a moneyspinner.

[NiMo]

So what you are basically saying is ignore the lists, ignore the handbook (i'll remember that when my car fails scrutineering due to the wing being too big or not having enough ground clearence) & do whatever your chosen club/chosen race series says as that is the BRCA way..

in which case what is the point of having the lists & the handbook? I sence a moneyspinner.

National scene compaired to club scene is like British Touring Car compared to the Stock Hatch class.
One has strict rules which must be obeyed, the other has basic rules to which a car falls in to that catagory.
My club for example, runs:
Sport
Stock
ProStock
Modified
Same chassis can be used in all, as classes are controlled by motor type and car weight.

[mad-wolfie]

Granted, although read my point again...


I plan on taking part in more of the nationals & the larger events anyway, so tend to stick to what's on the list anyway, although for club racing i do tend to downscale a bit buying cheap motors & using old shells or shells that haven't been cut to the regulations or tyres that are suited to the task rather than what is recommended or used for the nationals.


If i get into the habit of buying BRCA approved shells, motors, etc then i have the option to use them at club or national level if i need to or not. If I've already got them & I've a shell that is cut as per the dimension in the BRCA handbook I'm covered for 90% of eventualities, when i need to use them to be race legal for the larger events. I've either got them fitted to the car or i just install them from my kit bag as needed so i don't need to spend the last few days traipsing round hobby-shops. I'm not sponsored so can't afford to buy new shells / motors / tyres for each meeting, so i have to have club racing sets & an "approved" set or 2 i can keep aside for the time when it arises.

OK I may need to buy a set of tyres on the off-chance the race series has tyre regulations imposed, but at least i wouldn't have to faff about. Like the scouts i like to "be prepared"

however we are deviating somewhat from the initial discussion, back on topic.

[PDW]

I've tried to stay out of this...

I really can't see your point. The BRCA constitution is all about racing, nothing else. The types of products you are referring to as not being on the 'lists' are not competitive in a racing environment, so the manufacturer doesn't offer them for homologation.

There is nothing I am aware of the prevents you entering any of the products you mentioned in TORC, BTCC, or any of the Open Club events around the country. However, the BRCA governs a National Series, and that consists of a minority of the events. Where's the problem?

You've attracted several of the most experienced Club Race Directors and organisers in the country onto this thread, and they all don't understand your problem. Perhaps you're creating a problem where none exits? ;)

[terry.sc]

We seem to be going round in circles here...
All i am saying is that I agree there has to be some ground rules somewhere & that the BRCA amalgamation listings only state what the BRCA have approved & not what you can actually use to race with, basically implying that if it's not on the list you can't use it. As has been pointed out if it's not on the list you can't use it at a BRCA sanctioned touring car national championship meeting. Nothing to do with club racing at all, nor any racing class that does not use the EB homologation lists either. 1/12th stock cars use silvercan 540s, including in their national championships, because they don't use the electric board lists. The bike classes allow soft cased lipos and were running brushless long before they got anywhere near the approved lists. The list is only for certain national and regional championships, in touring cars this amounts to only 4 meetings this year.

The people you are talking about, novices who turn up at their local club, will have no idea what a BRCA homologation list is, never mind checking to see if their kit motor is BRCA approved for national championship racing, nor will it matter to them. It should not matter to the club either.

You can race at any local club with whatever rules the club wants to run to, even if the club wants to only allow 3 or up to 8 cells in the car, that is down to the club members to decide and not be dictated to by a national body. If you turned up at my club with a full set of BRCA championship legal equipment you will find yourself very much in the minority and certainly not competitive.


Hence my suggested solution of having an A-list & a B-list the A-list is following the same principles as the current list system, but then i would like to see a B-list as well because what I'd like to see is a bit of recognition somewhere in official BRCA documentation that components on high commercial demand or used in non BRCA sanctioned events are "recognised" by the association as "race legal" for use should the circumstances require it.
Okay, this is easy to answer and is already covered.
General rules no.13:
The BRCA will not recognise a model vehicle as being suitable for radio control that is more than any of these measurements: 1 metre long, 20 kilos in weight or a maximum of 30cc engine capacity.

Anything under those dimensions, using whatever equipment you like, is "BRCA legal", except for particular national championships.
If you want to propose a separate A and B list, then basically the rule is going to read:
A List - For national meetings only - Items homologated on the Electric Board list for those sections that use it, every other section anything commercially available that meets the sections rules.
B List - Anywhere else, except for individual clubs that want to use the EB lists - Anything that is commercially available.

Taking the 540 silvercan included in Tamiya kits, if a list is drawn up the list will then need revising every time Tamiya sources their motors from a different supplier because they get a better deal. Then the 540 used in ATX and Strada kits will have to be added as well if they are a different spec, or the same spec but from a different factory, although unless a manufacturer sends the motor to the BRCA there is no way of knowing what is what. If you have a list of items like this everything would be illegal until it was BRCA approved, compared with the present where everything is perfectly legal if your local club allows it.

Think of it this way, if i had to claim on my BRCA insurance (as after all i'm a BRCA member & covered by the associations insurance), could the claim be thrown out because my car wasn't fitted with a BRCA approved shell or had a stock motor?? now that does raise concerns.See general rule 13 above. It would have to have a bodyshell over 1m in length or with 20kg of ballast to make it not be covered by the insurance.


however the concern I have is that one day i may go to see some relations for a few days & take in some RC racing at the club local while i'm there.. the fact remains I "could" be told i couldn't race my TT-01 there club if there was some old stick-in-the-mud or fuddy-duddy saying it's "not race legal" because the shell, tyres, motor aren't on the BRCA list, when in the eyes of the Tamiya Eurocup, it's a perfectly race-worthy car & 100% race legal.Again that is down to the individual club. Turning it round, what happens if you turn up and you find the club only runs Mardaves, should they still allow your car in with them because your equipment is on a BRCA approved list?
Technically speaking IMHO if a motor/shell is legal to use in the Eurocup or any non BRCA race series taking place in the UK, on UK soil under BRCA type conditions then surely the component parts that are allowed, even though we understand it's not BRCA approved or on the BRCA list, it should still be deemed as "race legal" by the BRCA in all BRCA affiliated clubs Conversely should the Tamiya Eurocup allow your Mi2 with brushless and Protoform body because it is BRCA "race legal"?

I know locally there is a small club - basically operating in someone's backyard that I believe has BRCA affiliation status & they limit their uses to 27t motors & plastic tub cars such as TT-01's & ARE-1's mainly on safety grounds & to encourage the younger or less experienced side of the sport, This backs up everyone else's argument, that the BRCA has no control over what rules clubs decide to race with. If the members of the club decide to stick to the BRCA national championship rules that is down to them, if they want to allow GT shells or lipo in modified, again that is down to the club. Like your local club, if the club restricts the chassis to plastic tubs, again that is down to the club. A TRF416 will not be allowed (even though it is BRCA legal) because that individual club doesn't allow it.

So what you are basically saying is ignore the lists, ignore the handbook (i'll remember that when my car fails scrutineering due to the wing being too big or not having enough ground clearence) & do whatever your chosen club/chosen race series says as that is the BRCA way..
I have yet to find a weekly local club meeting that actually measures wing size. I find it's hard enough getting helpers to set out and clear away, never mind find volunteers to scrutineer the cars all night.

But if you do race in the BRCA touring car national championship then the car must be legal according to the BRCA nationals rules and there are officials there to check this. Similarly if you ran in the TORC or STCC you would be expected to follow the TORC or STCC rules, even though some of their rules mean your car would certainly be illegal for the BRCA championship.

[spmcc]

Well put Terry. This guys preoccupation with lists is quite scary. Bet hes got a load of fridge magnets at home.;)
With regard to his fixation with Tamiya Eurocup, they run to there own set of rules which bear little or no resemblance to BRCA rules and if he loves lists and what is or isn't allow read the Eurocup rules and see just what can or can't be fitted to the cars.
We have a standing joke at Snetterton at the Eurocup meetings where we disqualify at least one driver a meeting for not having Tamiya air in his tyres.