BL Bashing!!

[Terry]

May the battle (ahem, the 'discussion') commence!!!...

And before we begin may I request permission on this one thread to allow the talk to be about brushed motors when actually this forum is intended for 'Talk about brushless systems only'!!

Original post copied from 'Speed comparison of the SS' thread. PDW said:


Erm.... clang? (sound of spanner in works!)

Since the new V2 motors from Peak/Orion are currently being used at World Champs level with no rebuilds during 14 runs, and in 1/12th with no rebuilds for about 6 meetings, how does that make a brushless any advantage?

And, since you are all talking about having other brushless motors in your boxes at £90 a pop, how does that make it any cheaper?

And, have any of you run your brushless in the wet yet? What happens when the water gets into the Hall Effect switches and the control wires?

And have you noticed how the development of brushless in aircraft now requires the purchase of a new motor/speedo combo about every month? - who can afford to keep up with all this?

I am not being a Luddite, but reading this makes me think your free second pair from Specsavers came with rose tints!! ;D



To take one point at a time.

PDW said


Since the new V2 motors from Peak/Orion are currently being used at World Champs level with no rebuilds during 14 runs, and in 1/12th with no rebuilds for about 6 meetings, how does that make a brushless any advantage?


Erm they (BL) don't need any brushes, EVER!!!!.... next!

PDW said


And, since you are all talking about having other brushless motors in your boxes at £90 a pop, how does that make it any cheaper?


Erm, one and a spare maybe will do me just fine for YEARS!!!!.... next!

PDW said


And, have any of you run your brushless in the wet yet? What happens when the water gets into the Hall Effect switches and the control wires?


Erm, yes!! It (BL) works the same as in the dry, and unlike brushed there are no brushes to wear out in a few laps due to the equivalent of 'water-dipping' them!! BL motors tend to be better sealed than brushed motors anyway.

Erm, what's this talk about running in the wet... hmm methinks normal brushed drivers (top level) don't like (and avoid if at all possible) racing in the wet. They got bits in their cars wot go 'pop!!' at the slightest sniff of moisture, and besides they don't like getting their cars wet and and having to clean them, they end up all mucky and it takes the shine off and makes the bearings all gritty an'orrible. Best thing is ban racing in the wet!!

[my remarks are a bit harsh re last paragraph (but true IMHO!), no offence intended brushed top levellers!!]

PDW said


And have you noticed how the development of brushless in aircraft now requires the purchase of a new motor/speedo combo about every month? - who can afford to keep up with all this?


Erm, those that choose to? (some brushed car adherents are like that, and I say the same thing to them... why? you won't gain anything you got more money than sense!!). Would like clarification of 'requires the purchase of...'.

I assume there is a pertinent point to the above remarks? Nobody as far as I am aware (other than the companies trying to sell you their products, as is usual for any new product or exciting method of propelling a model car) who wishes to be a BL racer would buy into BL on the pretext that it is cheap. I choose BL because it is BL and it is new, exciting and fun, it is the future!!

... next!

PDW said


I am not being a Luddite, but reading this makes me think your free second pair from Specsavers came with rose tints!!


I won't even bother to list the downside of brushed, needless to say It'd only upset me. If we all viewed existing brushed racing and all it flaws we'd never have started racing in the first place. But after 25 years of racing I'm still here, and thanks to brushless I'm excited about a bright and shiny BL future!! ;)

Krrrrrunch!!! (sound of spanner well and truly mangled ;D)



[the above remarks have been made tongue-in-cheek and in good humour. A similar sentiment is hoped for in the discussion that follows. Playful banter and polite arguing is a requirement when contributing to this thread - No childish replies PLEASE!!]

[PDW]

Terry - all good points. My spanner seems a little worn from overuse, but still quite serviceable!! ;D

As I said on the other thread, I am grateful for you guys spending all the money, developing the product, and making it cheaper for me to buy later if I have to. However, when I see one laptop at a meeting plugged into the speedo and downloading data before a new program is uploaded ....

Lots of people who race LIKE to tune their motors. Knowing there was nothing I could do about my motor perfromance apart from buying a new one is actually quite depressing - unless of course I get out my laptop ....

So now the motors are all the same, we get to the battery war. Buying the latest pack 'cause it has better voltage, etc. And then this data would probably become part of the program I could download from my laptop .....

And you guys use cobalt magnets. Brushed would be a very different proposition if we used Cobalt, and brushless would be much lower performance if they had to use ceramic now. So, there will be different rare-earth magent armatures available for the price of a new brushed, which, of course, we just have to have...

And come on Terry, since when did you know a racer who wouldn't get involved in always buying the latest stuff to be competitive!! It is naive to think that you can avoid the 'new kit' war just by not choosing to get involved!! I can't see any of you allowing yourselves to be blown away if someone turns up at a track with the latest motor/speedo/rare-earth magnet armature/software/laptop/Brinks Mat security truck/etc ... :)

And lastly - £275 to get into this?? Most beginners upgrade gradually and affordably. It is an interesting diversion at present, but until it is clear how different motors, software, etc. affects the class, it is NOT the future.

I am glad you guys are enjoying yourselves, and defend to the death your right to run them in a BRCA class (something I supported at the AGM). But I am not sure it is going to pan out to be as simple as you reckon. Yes, this thread is for brushless motors - so talk about them. You can't expect that saying how much better they are than brushed would go without response - can you? Talk about them, and not about how much better they are than brushed!!

See you at a track somewhere this summer - I am really pleased that this class has ensured we haven't lost you as a racer.

Cheers
Peter

[MikeS]

Ok both of you make good if not slightly biased comments, which is natural if you put yourself hard and fastly in a particular corner. However there are just so many myths and mis-information doing the rounds about brushless systems that it really does beggar belief at times. Some of this I blame on the marketing types and some on people who really should know better.

I am not pro or anti either type of power system at all, no one should be since you cannot compare them at a technical level. I do, however, tend to agree that in the fullness of time they will all be BL systems of one kind or another, but that time is not now. Current products being touted in the market are not the right ones, being produced by people who are more interested in the commercial benefits to themselves rather than those of the sport. However this start is essential to allow the technology to develop and gather feedback from the widest possibly user base.

Firstly as the person who brought BL motors to the R/C car scene some 4+ years ago, having sold systems worldwide, and having some 30 years experience designing, working and building them I do think I know what I am talking about! Unlike a lot of the new crowd that have only recently found the BL religion. It is amazing that when we tried to introduce them to the racing scene all those years ago, those that tried the test cars were amazed, and as one very well known person said (after I finally got the TX off him), "wow...that is nothing like I was led to believe it would be, amazing, so smooth and so much power!". But those that didn't try them just discounted them with the same old false comparisons and comments.

BL motors use rare earth magnets simply because the size of the magnet, which is physically very small (ours being only 14mm diameter) and this is only needed to have a magnet field strong enough for it to work effectively. Pete, the magnetic field on the 540 sized BL motors is NO larger than that of the brushed motor and this comparison is a complete misnomer. I would also add that if you built a rare earth magnet motor with a 12 wind, it would not perform as well as current motors do, since the strength of the 2 magnetic fields in the motor are a balancing act, just increasing the permanent one would throw things out completely! Also BL motors (decent ones that is) in general always use Neo magnets not Cobalt, as Cobalt would not cut it! The so called ceramic magnet BL motors are nothing but a complete joke (sorry but true) produced by people who were more marketing driven (to appease the rule makers) than those that actually understand the real technical depths of the motor technology!

I also often read comments that people will be able to re-program the controllers to extract more power - what complete rubbish! If the people asserting this really knew the true complexity of the BL controller, its inner workings and how the program is so intimately linked to not only the motor but also the controllers circuit hardware they would realize how stupid comments of this type really are. The so called programmable controllers are not anything on the sort, they are just altering a couple of the simple control parameters to limit the coil frequency the maximum rotor rpm and possibly the advance characteristics. So, Pete, while I don't know exactly what you saw, it was not "re-programming" the controller. All that is required to alter the simple parameters is a control interface, normally done on the controller by a button/switch, just as you would find on a modern ESC.

The BL motor system is just a different type of system, it is not better, it is not worse, it is just different. Both types of system have their advantages and disadvantages, but the actual value or importance of these will depend on each and every individual and application. To argue the merit of one against the other is both stupid and irrational.

I would also add that the description "motor system" is a very important one. I have read that people seem to think they will be able to run any BL motor with any controller - just another piece of complete myth. Unless all motors are built and constructed with identical materials and dimensions this will just not be the case. They will "run", but not effectively, since the physical dimensions and construction of the motor specifically determines the control parameters that will make it work to it optimum potential, anything else will just not do this. Which raises another important point. In putting a BL system together the design stages are motor spec for the application then the control parameters to drive the motor to fullfill the application parameters. In BL the sophisticated relationship that exists between the motor and the controller is driven by the motor - NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND!

However, the comparison with the brushed motors in this interchangeability aspect is very important. All brushed motors are built to the exact same physical dimensions, the magnets are all virtually the same, the stacks are virtually the same and the materials are all virtually the same. This and the less sophisticated electrical control parameters that a brushed motor needs to operate (the switching is performed by the brushes not the controller) is what makes the mixing of different motor with different controllers possible. Until the BL motors are regulated to the same specific levels, construction, materials and dimensional controls then it will not be the case and your motor system will be just that - a system Z, as opposed to a motor X and a controller Y! It is just this reason that I have withdrawn from the BL market until there are some universally approved and fixed regulations in place to control the motors, which there will have to be before BL can be properly accepted into this sport. The current BRCA rules are only a draft and will remain a draft, since they, like ROAR, are struggling to determine exactly what and how this should and can be done in the long term. To develop a system without these rules would be a commercial gamble and mistake at this point in time. However since my "old" system falls within the current draft regs, I might just bring them out for some fresh air in the future to show how a BL really can perform, and they are a lot quicker than the current market offering if speed if your requirement, as anyone who has seen or tested them can confirm.

Pete, the aircraft guys that run BL motors tend to over power their motors (no different to the car stock guys trying to gain more) and this results in seriously overheated motors that lose magnetic field strength or even damaged windings. The design of their planes tend to have sealed and enclosed motor installations which are no allowing the motors to be cooled since this would add drag. Correctly geared and correctly powered BL motors will last almost indefinitely.

The over-riding benefit of the BL system is the lack of the parts that wear out rapidly - i.e brushes and comms and the lack of maintenance to keep the performance up, the down side is the upfront cost, no higher than top end racing stuff, it is just a single upfront cost. I just wish people would stop trying to make out that one is better than the other, the comparison is completely wrong and those that make it are either misguided or just misinformed.

[bob burr]

The thing people always say on cost is think of the 27t stock guys, how little they spend ;D ;D ;D, i did some enquiring and some of the top or better 27t guys spend enough in a year just on motors to buy a brushless system, 3 or 4 motors is not unheard of, 2 or 3 sets of brushes a meeting at £3.50 a time, motor cleener, bearing oil, com drops, skiming, dry ice to freeze motor before a run,extra work on the car to make the most of the little power available, add it up yourself thats a lot of money.
Yes there are those that use 1 motor all year and brushes last 3 meets etc but i bet they were not in the top 10 of any major championship.
I bet even the average 27t guy spends £120 in a year on there motors alone.

[PDW]

Bob - thanks for the detailed response, very informative.

I'm not trying to argue that one is better than the other, I am tyring to balance the hype around BL (which you have done well above). I agree that there is too much hype, and it is this sort of hype that gets translated to a recent comment overheard at a track - "If we are all going to have to go BL to be competitive, I'm giving up"
This is poorly informed, but it is listened to by others. I don't want any one to 'give up'.

They are, as you say, different. I, like you it seems, just wish people would stop saying "BL is the future" - 'cause it ain't!! Until, as you point out, there is some stability and a standard to allow interchangeability, the market is small and entry to the market a gamble.

The overiding benefit of the brushed system is the ability to tune motors - something well within my mechanical knowledge and ability - which I enjoy. The downside is some cost. I too wish there was more latitude in people's opinions, but we don't live in that world anymore.

Probably only through people like you, Bob, will we get to a balanced opinion. My regret is that few people will accept it!! Long live both classes, since it will get, and keep, more people in the sport.

[MikeS]

Thanks Pete, but it's Mike not Bob, we don't look anything alike ;)

[johnbull]

Hi friends. Greetings from Malta.

All very interesting. Here's my 2 cents.

There is no doubt that Brushless is the future. We may be able to delay it, but sooner or later it's going to happen. Hopefully by that time it will have been developed to the extent that most of it's present flaws will have been ironed out.

We're all used to the normal motor we have been using for years. People are still managing to extract more power from them. We accept them with all their faults. Running modifieds competitively you need a skim and a new set of brushes each run if you really want to be competitive. Actually this also applies in the other classes these days. It's alot of uninteresting repetitive work - changing brushes, cleaning, skimming, then throwing it all together again. You spend a good 15 minutes and 3 or 4 pounds for 5 minutes running.

Now we have the V2., which is supposed to greatly reduce maintenance time and costs. I have just received some of these. First impression is that they are going to have to be very much better than the normal motors we have been running, to compensate for the "filldyness". God they are fiddly. Try soldering the motor wires on a Yoke SD, or a TC3. Also changing brushes and springs.I have been soldering electrical stuff for over 40 years, but trying to solder the motor wires on my SD took all of 15 minutes, and had me in a sweat.

Perhaps I'm getting old - got old! But I just don't have the patience any more.

With all the maintainance, I think I still prefer the motors we have been using so reliably for years.

I'll be trying some comparisons between V2 and conventional tomorrow.

Regards

Joe from sunny Malta.

[bob burr]

I to think Brushless is the future of our sport, maybe not fully for a few years as others have said, but it will come.
I still see there being a 27t or 19t introductory class so a beginer can buy a cheep speedo and motor, but i can see more and more drivers geting fed up with the time and cost of skiming and changing brushes, and yes Pete it was me at the AGM that said brushless is the future of our sport as reported in a certain mag, and in 5 years time when its the majority class i will remind you all i said it. ;D.
But dont say you cant afford to buy a brushless system when your changing brushes every run.

[bob burr]

One other thought ! the brusless forum is for people interested in it or running it so they can get info, now ICs, off road and oval have there problems but i dont go on there threads pulling them apart, i dont race them so its nothing to do with me.
If you dont like brushless and dont run them fine but dont knock the people who do and want to see it grow.

[Remo]

Damn... and I thought this was a thread talking about running Monster Trucks with a BL motor ;)

I just wish we can stop talking about entry cost of either class becasue there isnt much in it. If you want top notch performing motor / speedo combo both Brushed and BL are quite similar... I dont want to hear about "initial" outlay and stuff cos we are not comparing like with like... I mean who would find "initiaing" with say a Quantum Pro, a 12t V2 motor, perhaps a lathe too is logical or cheap? At at least the BL you can turn down the power (Novak anyway).

I remember I had to decide whether to buy a lathe or give up racing cos I couldnt believe the amount of maintenance I had to do with brushed motors... and if BL was available then I would have seriously considere in the same way... but now I know 12 months down the line which would have worked out cheaper... If one day there is a ruggered RTR racer available with a mild and low cost BL system I am sure it would bring more to racing being almost maintenance free... then from there they can decide teh next level... :)

I like both types of motors for different reasons, just like I like the roar of a set of twin WEBBER carburators than fuel injection systems... or a Holley double barrel... ;D

[Tom]

For me Brushless gets rid of all the hassle and annoying parts in the hobby, I hated brushed motors, maintanance and things always going wrong. It was costly and in my opinion a real pain. It leaves you time to do more important things like marshaling, car chassis tuning etc. and makes racing alot less stressful and more enjoyable. I no longer have to mess about getting motors skimmed, brushes changed, and even the battery side is made easier as a GP3300 pack will last me more than 2 races. Last week i did 2 races and had atleast 5 mins practice on 1 pack.
Acceleration is amazing, top speed is very good and more than fast enough for me, faster than my 13x2 ever was.
Cost wise i paid less for my Novak brushless brand new than the cost of a competition speedo and every penny is well spent. It beats spending on motors, brushes, speedo, lathe, comm drops, etc etc.
I dont think that brushless will replace brushed for a long time but i think it will grow in popularity and classes will start, but for me brushless is the future. ;)

[PDW]

Mike - I am mortified, and very sorry, to have mistaken you in my reply. That does not detract from my comments at all.

Bob - you may yet have to remind me, and I am not saying that it will not be bigger than it is now, or that it will never be significant. BL has raised the game. Since the brushed motor manufacturers will be fighting back, it may take a little longer than your estimate IMHO!

The original thread was about comparison of one class to another (speed) and so I joined in to put another viewpoint.

The Yanks made huge club nights a regular occurence by taking in lots of classes with a few people in each, whereas in the UK we seem to sectionalise our meetings. I would far rather we celebrated the addition of a new class for our sport that is clearly bringing in new people, as well as keeping some people who would otherwise leave, than debate the merits of one class over the other in terms of speed, cost or any other parameter.

As someone once said - I do not agree with what the gentleman says, but I defend to the death his right to say it. BL is not for me, but I hope to support its right to have a class to race in.

[BarnStormer]

Im going to be running my novak brushless in the btcc this year, and actually I believe I can compete competetively in the whole championship. Some tracks I may even have an advantage; especially stafford due to the low grip of the track.

[Terry]

Good posts, good points. Peter has said exactly what I hold as being more important than anything else, regardless of what it is that is new this fact remains paramount - that of the right to run a class (in this case brushless) if there is support for it. Even if companies lose money due to reduced sales of motor brushes etc, and if it threatens to replace the current brushed motors. As Peter says the class may never become significant but it has to start somewhere. The technology and products available may not be perfect as was the case in the early days of brushed rc racing (remember them??) but the early adopters, those people spending money now are helping to establish BL as the possible electric class of the future. It is the racers who will decide the future by which class they choose to race in.

Remo,

Sorry to disappoint you with no mention of monster trucks!! Actually I did intend the title to be ambiguous, as it could be implied that here we are bashing BL, or that BL is bashing, or that some people have a bash with their BL!!!... All the preceding threads are equally valid and welcome. As long as we can exchange ideas and knowledge then that's just great!! BL is for everyone who is forward looking and prepared to embrace new ideas and just have good fun.

Peter et al,

I find it quite ironic that the new V2 motors which supposedly are the saviour of brushed motors, do not appear to be the solution hoped for. I heard that there are new special harder (longer life) V2 brushes that cost £9 a pair!! I thought £5 was bad enough. I more than anyone would like to see an answer for brushed motors. The word A-F-F-O-R-D-A-B-L-E is writ large and bold in my signature... the point I would like to get across is that regardless of what brushed class you compete in it's a bit like an arms race but with brushes. Even if there are super hard brushes available that last for 100 runs it's no good if you are using them and getting 100 runs at say 80% of the performance that someone else gets by running soft brushes that last only 1 run. If you want to compete on equal terms power/speed/performance wise you are forced to use soft brushes that last for 1 run to have a chance of winning. That is why brushless is better IMO. It removes that unfairness that currently favours those with money/factory support and puts everyone else at a disadvantage. For some reason some people won't or don't want to see this fact. As batteries increase in capacity/performance the brush problem can only get worse. As well as the down-side of the V2 motors mentioned so far, are V2 stock motors a reality? V2 27 turn stocks within the current price limits? The design as far as I can see is too costly to produce due to the machined endbell etc. Maybe I'm wrong on this point.

The point raised about batteries and specifically PDW's 'battery war' simply would not happen with brushless motors because as Remo has said 'you can turn down the power'. Unlike at present where there are no limits on the batteries and there is a covert battery war (better batteries beat lesser batteries) with brushless the speedo can be set to limit the RPM/acceleration-rate which to me sounds to be fair for everyone, no advantage for team drivers with their factory team cells. It does of course apply to other levels as well - club drivers with good cells v club drivers with average cells etc. As I have said already, fair for everyone, everyone the same, it's down to your car set-up, tyre choice and driving skill!!

The point about being able to run different BL motors with different BL speed controllers is worth mentioning here. The majority who race brushless probably don't want out-and-out speed they want affordable racing that is equal and fair and the ability to increase their motors speed and performance (by setting the ESC) as their driving skill increases. They want to go as fast as they can while still retaining control of their car. What is essential is that as with current brushed classes such as stock the motors comply to a specified design (ie complies with BRCA EB rules). So all motors regardless of the manufacturer are (within certain manufacturing tolerances) equal. At this point the electronic speed controller manufacturers (the bit I am involved in) are able to produce BL ESC's to comply to the performance specs, ie 41760 RPM @ 7.2V DC or whatever. This sounds very fair to me. So what is wrong with having racing that is fair and equal, or at least a lot more fair and equal than the brushed racing is at present.

I do have to admit that I don't run the Novak SS brushless at the moment (the other BL drivers at my club are fine weather summer only racers!). At the club meeting today I was running 19 turn Super Stock and for the first time we had more 19 turn than 27 turn. I am (or have been up till recently) a modified racer but with the numbers racing modified in decline (maybe due to escalating costs for brushes?) I and others have switched to 19 turn. I have never been a 'throw-money-at-it' racer or a 'have-to-have-the-latest-new-kit' type. I don't buy the lastest stuff to remain competitive (I don't believe all the hype). My last mod motor (yes I only have one I use all the time) lasted over a year, I change brushes only when I have to. I have 3 packs of GP3300's and my TC3 is one of the originals that I have had since they first came out. I still do as well as ever. I don't need to spend-spend-spend because I stick to club racing. I still hate skimming comms and changing brushes, it does absolutely nothing for me.Tuning motors is not really my thing. The point I'm making is that for me ever go back to race at national level I will have to know I don't have to spend a fortune. I accept I will have to buy a new TC3 and some tyres, but to compete in the brushless class at top level that's about all I need to buy.

And one last point. Seeing as there is so much mis-information and myth in existing brushed racing and its adverts (more than enough to go round) what's wrong with having a bit in brushless, it needs some 'hype and spin' to out-hype and out-spin the existing brushed marketing machine. At least there are specific performance figures (like you get with r/c electric aircraft) staing specific RPM/Volt etc etc.

I'm not pro BL & anti brushed, I'm 'pro affordable ultimate performance for everyone', and brushless seems to offer exactly that!!

And finally, to quote that man with the slightly mangled spanner a little worn from overuse, but still quite serviceable!!...

"BL is the future" - 'cause it ain't!!... Erm, well it's certainly not the past!!!! ;D

[PDW]

More good points from Terry, but a little muddled in places??

£9 for a pair of brushes - it isn't how much they cost Terry, it is how much they cost per race. I know you are not saying that BL has no cost of ownership, so how much for a pair of bearings and how long do they last? (No, I don't need to know!!)

"Who runs a motor at 80%?" - well, most people, for most of the time. It is a little cheeky to say brushed drivers wouldn't run at 80% and BL drivers would (Remo's post about turning down the power) when actually, both do; and both want to.

I, like Terry, ran 19t in the TORC using one motor with one rebuild per meeting. I got good results and didn't want to enter the motor-rebuilt-for-every-run race. My results were more about my driving and my car set-up.

I don't want to burden the organising club with sophisticated scrutineering to check that my '19t BL' is OK to race - I simply want to race in a controlled motor class that is easy for everyone to access, and clubs to organise.

Terry, the cost of the V2 and V2 stock can be ignored. Orion are in this for the long term (they are Swiss, not American!) and have good backing. Even if they make a loss in the short term, I am certain they will make a profit in the long term - that is the lesson of their battery product. And remember, the UK is the market with price limits, yet represents a fraction of the total market that mainly has no price limits. If it's good, and people want it, it'll sell!

BL is not the past in its technology. However, those who fail to learn the lessons of history, are condemned to repeat them. Whether or not BL has a future in racing depends on how well we want to learn the lessons of the past. We haven't started very well have we?!!

[Jim Spencer]

Gentlemen

How about a different slant on things?

My theory goes something like this;-

Whatever Tamiya are selling shed loads of at the moment is going to be the biggest class in about 3 years, and whatever their top line kit is, will be a significant class in a few years too.

So if tamiya suddenly bring out a 6 wheel drive reliant and it sells in its 1000's then it'll suddenly be the next big thing..

But if it comes with a 540 size motor and lets be daring and say an electronic speedo, then the major class will be for 540 sized motors and electronic speedo's or a combination that can be got to, by small easy to take financial and technology steps.

However if Tamiya brought out a 1/8 size touring car that ran lets say a couple of 7.2v packs and a seriously kick bottom (better be polite eh!) brusless system then what do we think will happen?

Incidenially has anybody seen the EU 'white paper' tring to ban petrol burning two stokes? (before anybody shouts I know 1/10 & 1/8 run methanol but how long before somebody notices?)

If any classes have something to worry about long term its anything running an IC engine as somebody somewhere is eventually going to get all upset about emissions or noise. If the Brushless manufacturers want to make an impact get Associated or somebody to resurect an old 1/8 circuit design stick 12 cells in it and make it go seriously quick..

Just my 2p

Jim

[DA_cookie_monstA]

Sounds good to me Jim, mega quick, loads of grip and aerodynamic aides that work!!!! All running on a brushless system ;D;D

Hasn't California banned two stroke now?

[Terry]

Peter,

You have a PM!! ;D

[NumanR]

I dont know if this would be possible but if Luke is running BL in the BTCC and as I understand it BL are going to be running in with modified, could we have a coloured sticker on the BL cars to enable people to identify a BL runner. I havent seen a brushless motor running in a car and it would be great to actually be able to compare them in a race situation.

[PDW]

Jim, finally, a use for BL motors that plays to all their strengths.

I would like to see this adopted by Schumacher for their Big 6 class. Maybe 8 cells to start with (they can be charged from a 12v) but with a BL motor and any gearing you like!! I bet they would be quick, you could use all the power, and it would be easier than a Nitro.

Even I might get my credit card out for that!!

[bob burr]

Mark, when you look at the heat lists it will say F1 by a driver with an ordinary motor and F2 by drivers with brushless, so just look at what cars are running brusless in any heat and watch them.

[John Davie]

Peter , im sorry to say this but Mike Smith has beat you to that idea. He has a big 6 with a brushless motor in it, even raced in the BTCC a couple of times in 2002 i think. Only real problem was the tyres could not cope with so much power and neither could the stock suspension.

Would have been neat to see it going side ways down the entire lenth of the straights at some place like Bedworth or Ashby.

[PDW]

John, I think he must be practicing for the new 'drifting' class mentioned on another thread!! How was it Mike - and how many cells did you run?

[John Robson]

Hi Pete, Have you got a Brushless yet??, I have been running one since September 2003.
If you have yet to get one, you will see how enjoyable they are.
;D 8) ::)

[Garry]

Hey guys, I'll volunteer me and my car for Big 6 brushless testing purposes this year!

;)

[MikeS]

John, I think he must be practicing for the new 'drifting' class mentioned on another thread!! How was it Mike - and how many cells did you run?


6 cells as there was (is still?) a rule governing this. Sideways with full available opposite lock virtually all the way down the straight at West London was quite a spectacle, so much so the race director commented on it more than once. Far too much power even on 6 cells. If you are going to run this level of power in a Big6, then you will need some much better tyres (even after liberally tweaking them they are still far too hard) and a relaxation in the rules to allow some suspension changes so it can cope. Almost as as much power as a Nitro, but with approaching half the weight does not make for a good handling car. Plus the inherant instability caused by such a heavy bodyshell makes for quite a rolling handful.

The speeds with the BL are also far too much for the typical sized track so you really don't need this sort of power level. It was fun, it was fast, but not enjoyable to race........

[Doughty]

sounds great to me!

[Garry]

Me too!

[MikeS]

I should add this was not the Novak system it was ours and it was 3 seasons ago, at least I think! On 8 cells it would just be silly!

Our 14lb nearly all alloy E-Maxx will pass a TC on the straight at Snetterton, on a single motor on 12 cells, on dual BL on 6 cells for each, it could jump straight out of the track clearing the outer track tubes easy.

At Rockingham, we let a TV presenter loose with it, for all of about 20secs before I had to take the tranny off them. I can't remeber if that was single of dual motors that time.

[Dave G]

yep those bl motors of yours were damn quick mike..i had the next to top quickest one(the thin ones)..stupid speed.

dave

[Waggit]

Hi everyone,

What alternatives are there to the Novak system? I have been club racing indoors for a while now on carpet running to modified rules and I am looking to step up from my eco20 esc and 21t motor - please, contain your laughter :D I would also like to do a few larger events in the near future to gain some experience. The maintainance free side of brushless really appeals to me especially if i do get more serious. What would you guys advise someone relatively new to the sport to do? The club circuit I race on is very tight and twisty if this helps.....

[PDW]

Mike, are you saying that a BL can develop as much power as a nitro engine on 6 cells? If so, then why not fit one into a Nitro TC chassis and try that? Since that chassis can clearly handle the power, it would be nice to 'whoop their ass' for five minutes with an electric!!

I can recall the horror we had when Twister 21t doubles came into 1/12th and the cars were almost undriveable. Just because a Big 6 can't take the power now is not reason to give up!! We tamed the 1/12th cars, and we now run 8t with no problems. We can tame Big 6!!! ;D ;D

OK, where can I get to see one run? :)

[Garry]

Our 14lb nearly all alloy E-Maxx will pass a TC on the straight at Snetterton, on a single motor on 12 cells, on dual BL on 6 cells for each, it could jump straight out of the track clearing the outer track tubes easy.



At our club, we race on a large indoor tarmac track, and have a class for non-touring cars. We regularly have 2 EMaxxes, one with 2 Novak SS's, and my HPI Super RS4. I don't know wether gearing plays a part, but it'll easily keep up with me down the straight, and I'm running a Reedy Kr 12x2 on 6 cell GP3300!

Pete, if someone will loan me an SS, I'll try it in BTCC sometime this year!

[Doomanic]

Pete, if someone will loan me an SS, I'll try it in BTCC sometime this year!


LOL, if there were free ones going, I am sure it would be the best supported class! ;D

[Terry]

Hi Richard, welcome to the forum!! :)

May I start by asking why you want an alternative to the Novak system? For just messing about and 'BL bashing' in the street for fun etc there are several alternatives to choose from. If price is the problem I'm afraid that won't change for a while yet. To go brushless you are going to have to pay out a few £'s more than the cost of an existing top-end speedo + good mod motor.

The BRCA draft BL rules seem to have been written around the Novak SS spec. IMO it's no good having the rules wide open so any BL motor is effectively legal, from lower power BL motors (ie the Novak SS) up to mega-power mega-speed (and even more expensive) BL motors. We need (and you need I suspect) an equivalent to say a 12 or 27 turn motor that has a very similar 'feel' (for acceleration and braking etc) to what you use now plus has the advantage of being maintenance free. Until other companies produce motors and ESC's similar to the Novak SS, that offer performance, control (no 'cogging' etc) and 'feel' similar to existing brushed motors/ESC's the Novak SS is your best choice for racing at the present time.

[Garry]

Pete, if someone will loan me an SS, I'll try it in BTCC sometime this year!


LOL, if there were free ones going, I am sure it would be the best supported class! ;D


Not to keep, just a loan for Bedworth. :D

[Doughty]

its not as if you would be wearing it out! :P

[Garry]

Exactly!

I'm going to ask the lad at our club who has the Twin-SS EMaxx, to see if he'll lend me one.

Or I can run one in return for advertising space on my car. Lets face it, its not short of space?

:)

Back OT, is there a RRP on the new HV?

[MikeS]

The BRCA draft BL rules seem to have been written around the Novak SS spec.

Sorry Terry, but this is incorrect. Also, if you read the rules you will see that, as they are currently worded (without interpretation), the Novak system does not actually comply!

The rules currently states:
"9.2: ............Only two pole magnetic rotors are permitted. Only ‘Ferrite’ or ‘Neodymium’ magnets are permitted."

The Novak uses 6 magnets, and while each magnet has 2 poles, as do all permanent magnets used in any DC motor, and unless unless they actually felt is was necessary to state the obvious (?), which is not stated in the brushed motor descriptions at all, you will agree is not what this was actually meant to mean. Note, our motor has only 2 poles - one single 2 pole magnetic rotor, exactly as per the wording!

The BRCA did NOT formulate these rules, they were agreed in principle at a meeting called by the US governing body, held after the recent off-road worlds in the US, where a number of "interested" parties, including manufacturers, were present. The EB has simply used these BUT has, quite correctly IMHO, notarized them as draft as they can see that this is potentially a very transient thing right now.

Believe me, the Novak motor you are seeing today are not where BL will be in this sport in the future.

BL is a different type of motor, and as those who are trying them have found, require a different driving approach to use them effectively. I know it's only natural but I wish that people would stop trying to fit them into existing brushed classes and just accept that they are different and let them be. This continuing attempt to equate them to 27t or 19T stock motors is part of the reason that they will not take off as quickly as they could, it just causes problems since design criteria have to be compromised to acheive this, and driver confusion. Problems because they can and will NEVER be the equivalent to the existing 27/19 motors and confusion since the existing brushed drivers quite rightly don't want them in the same race, which confuses potential users as to when they actually would fit in.

From a technical perspective formulating rules for BL classes is very difficult. For example, the mere fact that the layout of the major components that make up the typical BL motor are physically reversed when compared to the brushed motor we use means that there are many different ways to build them. The many different approaches to the design and layout of the stator plates and windings for one is a major issue. For example, many people have commented on the fact that our BL motor will freewheel just as if it does not exist when stationary, I am not sure if the Novak exhibits the same characteristic, but I also have designs where the motor cogging is just as high or very similar to existing brushed motors. Which is right, I personally don't know, but I can do it both ways, which is not possible with the brushed design.

Similarly, there are many ways that the rotor can be constructed (the magnet), it can be, like ours, in the form of a single cylindrical 2 pole magnet (very expensive to make), or a mutiple cylindrical magent assembly or a "constructed" multi-magnet rotor (the cheapest and least effective way, hence the typically lower power this design produces, size for size).

Remember, been there done that, having built my first very first (and very crude!) BL motor over 30 years ago! And while I don't know what the solution is, I do know what it isn't.

<edit: rule 9.2 wording entered>

[PDW]

I think the 2-pole bit is a language issue - we used to refer to armatures as 3-pole for the brushed, and that came from the US.

I agree with Mike (not Bob!!) about the equivalence, hence my posts above. If they were used in Big 6 with 8-cells (to make as clear a difference between current classes as possible!) then there would be a greater take up.

[marcoski]

The Novak ss does not show any cogging effect with no drive. Its as if you have removed the pinion. LOL a moderate push will see my car all the way down a 26M straight!! Good job our hall is flat!

Not only will the rule makers have to decide how many magnets are allowed on the rotor, but also how many poles are allowed on the stator. Or will they say build it how you want but it may produce no more than X amount of power. Having a power limit, either due to physical construction or V*I monitoring in software would be one way of limiting the potential cell war that may ensue if the limits are only placed on the motors construction.

You could with power limits have a few classes, for instance, upto 100W, upto 200W and upto 300W.

<edit> PDW - the armature is 3 pole because it has three active magnetic poles! With a permanent magnet rotor, it is possible to build a one piece cylinder magnet that has 6 magnetic poles around its edge. As Mike says, a 2 pole cylinder magnet is the most efficient, but Novak chose to build a 6 pole cylinder for the SS. >

[Dave G]

but if you make say a 300 watt motor and then make the speedo with the limiting software/hardware to enable you to set the power of the motor to different classes wont this make the speedo hot...like the novak gets hot when running in stock mode??

dave

[marcoski]

Yes possible, but you would not do that. You would buy the motor you think you can handle, just as we do now. As you get better, you would sell the low power motor and buy the next one up. This is all hypothectical, of course. We must avoid falling into the trap of having a system that tries to emulate the current classes. As Mike says, and I agree, this is not realistic.

[bob burr]

First i dont want Mike S to think im slanging his products of with what im about to say.
I think the problems with Mikes brushless motors from what iv heard were they were too powerful, a few years ago when brushless was first talked about people said we would have 3 times the power and 4 times the speed, that there would have to be new cars and new transmisions etc to handle all this.
As i say from what i have heard Mikes motors were a bit like this, the reason the Novac system HAS taken off is that we CAN compare it to an ordinary motor (all be it a 13 or 14t motor)the reason the 27t and 19t classes are popular is people dont want unlimited power, just controlable power with no maintenance.
Now i dont beleve the Novac system is perfect by any means, and im sure beter will come, BUT its definatley the best system so far and that is why people are buying it, and that is why we finally have brushless classes in most major series, produce something like the Novak Mike but with the speed of say a 12 turn motor and you will be on a winner.

[MikeS]

Hi Bob,
You actually make a good point there, and I take no offence what so ever.

I still don't actually think that equivalence is the right way to go, but as you say it is a start.

As the to heresay, yes we can make them powerful, but no cars to my knowledge suffered ANY failure as a consequence of running a BL system, that is just folklore :)

It seems to me that the majority of the current runners seem disappointed with the performance of the Novak system, so I am somewhat confused by your comment, but never the less is does have some merit.

To run at around the 12t performance you only needed to run one of our lower spec motors ;D Same controller, with no other change at all.

However as I said, I have taken your comment onboard and will watch the developments in this field with interest before we release our new systems ;)

[bob burr]

Mike i also find it strange that some off the people coming to brushless from say 27 or 19t think the Novak is a bit slow ? poss gearing is wrong, as from what we have found it is simular to say a 13t motor.
I also think like others that the brusless should be a class on its own, that may sound strange coming from me as i was the person who wanted them to run with the modifieds, but if only a few were to race them this year on there own i dont think it would off taken off, by running with the mods in the TORC and BTCC people will be able to directly compare them with a 12t motor and hopefully more will join in.

[Remo]

i think it seems slow because until now most people has been hearing about the really powerful ones like Mikes and other ones on the market? and so when they got the SS they werent blown away.... i thought mine was slower than my 12T but thats not why I got mine, I got it so I can run and run without wearing my race motors.... 8) also it does take a few experiments to get it geared correctly... and now is plenty quick!

[Terry]

Mike,

I did qualify what I said with the word 'seem'. I said 'The BRCA draft BL rules seem to have been written around the Novak SS spec'. What I was getting at (apologies for not making myself clear) is that it's the Novak system and Novak's 'BL concept' that IMO has brought the rules into existence! I'm not concerned with the fact that the rules make any motor legal or illegal, the very fact they are draft rules is due to it being very early days for BL (as far as organised racing goes) and as you say, BL is in a very transient state right now. The draft rules may have originated outside of the UK and the BRCA, but they exist as 'the BRCA BL draft rules' and will hopefully act as a guide to manufacturers who wish to develop products to comply with the rules for racing BL in the UK at BRCA sanctioned meetings.

As has been mentioned by Marcus (which is essentially what I have been saying) is that perhaps '100W entry level/200W intermediate level /300W Pro level BL racing is the way to go (it's up to the rule makers to establish ways to check for motor/ESC legality, we just want to race BL!). We need to forget 'speed comparisons' with existing brushed motor classes (apart from giving the uninitiated an idea of what say, a Novak SS is like for comparison purposes). I appreciate one motor will not 'fit-all' performance wise, as I have said we need low power BL (ie Novak SS) and high power BL (ie Mike's top end systems) and maybe something in between. I myself have a Novak SS at present only because it is as far as I'm aware, the only complete system that's been designed specifically for car racing. As Bob has said the Novak SS appears to be what people want or else they wouldn't buy it. The Novak is by no means perfect and it is doubtless the start of a very long development and evolution that BL like brushed and i.c. etc before it have all gone through. I personally am very excited by the prospect and look forward to the future with great excitement ;D

As Remo so correctly says:


got mine, I got it so I can run and run without wearing my race motors.... also it does take a few experiments to get it geared correctly... and now is plenty quick!


Lots of running possible (without wearing brushed race motors), plenty of chance to experiment with BL, or test out tyres and set-up's etc for normal brushed racing... and when geared correctly it is plenty quick! ;) ;D 8)

I'm an experienced driver (and old :-) an ex Pro 10 speed freak who would love to drive an seriously over-powered 1/10 TC so I can 'smoke 'em tyres and make 'em burn!!' ;D So I can't wait for the day the Pro BL class gets going. But for now the sedate Novak SS (a mild 13 or 14 turn motor is sedate these days) will have to do for me, at least I've got some other BL drivers to race against!

Note for Pete: Sorry but a Big 6 running on 8 cells is not for me, I like to drive 1/10 TC because it's what everyone does these days. But Pro 10 is still my favourite racing... a Pro 10 with BL motor and rubber tyres, WOW!! now that might just catch on!!!!??? ;D

[mark barord]

At the Basildon club we now have about 6 guys running brushless, all with the Novak system and they have all improved their performance since swapping. The excellent torque being more important than the top end performance indoors. This has been especially true for the young lads who did not have access to a lathe etc...
I am still running a brushed set up and whilst it is possible to beat them (with a 12t) it is definatley more difficult than it used to be!
The only problem is that they go backwards and so the first time in years I am suffering the frustration of someone backing out of a corner and taking me out! The old brain can cope with "there is a crashed car go wide so you don't hit it" but not with "leave it enough room to let it do a 3 point turn!"

[marcoski]

The going backwards bit can be switched off - it is mandatory for all speedos / motor systems at BLRCCC.

[NumanR]

Marcus may I have a look at your motor on the 15th at Lowestoft team race?

[marcoski]

You will be able to look at Adam Packs motor with pleasure. I have had to hang up my thumbs :( I will be there handing out the penalties and running the show...

[Terry]

The Novak ss does not show any cogging effect with no drive. Its as if you have removed the pinion. LOL a moderate push will see my car all the way down a 26M straight!! Good job our hall is flat!

The cogging I was referring to is when accelerating from standstill or low speed. The Novak SS has a smooth pick-up just like normal brushed motors. Other BL systems (especially sensorless) suffer from a judder or hesitation, the 'cogging' I was referring to.



Not only will the rule makers have to decide how many magnets are allowed on the rotor, but also how many poles are allowed on the stator. Or will they say build it how you want but it may produce no more than X amount of power. Having a power limit, either due to physical construction or V*I monitoring in software would be one way of limiting the potential cell war that may ensue if the limits are only placed on the motors construction.


As I have said, physical construction with V*I monitoring in the software, with say a 41760 RPM @ 7.2V DC performance limit. Makes the racing fairer and more equal (more equal than with brushed) and would effectively end the existing on-going cell war, not any potential future one.

As in full size F1 etc (ie traction control) it may give the rule makers/scrutineers a headache, but I'm sure they could sort it.




but if you make say a 300 watt motor and then make the speedo with the limiting software/hardware to enable you to set the power of the motor to different classes wont this make the speedo hot...like the novak gets hot when running in stock mode??

dave


The Novak (speedo) gets hot running in any mode, stock mode (limiting) potentially makes it worse.




Yes possible, but you would not do that. You would buy the motor you think you can handle, just as we do now. As you get better, you would sell the low power motor and buy the next one up. This is all hypothectical, of course. We must avoid falling into the trap of having a system that tries to emulate the current classes. As Mike says, and I agree, this is not realistic.


What we need is a BL system that is a bit faster than the Novak SS but not too fast. That way we only need one motor spec (with a V*I software controlled performance limit) which satisfies everyone currently racing the faster brushed motors, and leaves 27 turn stock as it now for the new racers and those who prefer to race in stock. Personally I'd be happy with that, I could live without mega speed and power, so long as the racing was fair, affordable and maintenance free ;D

[PDW]

Terry - it's time for a new thread. This isn't BL Bashing any more, it's BL supporting!!! ;D

[Remo]

Pete, you'd better start another one since you got more practice than us... LOL ;)

By the way I stuck it in my RC10L3 190mm pan car.... and its soooo faast that for once I had no control what so ever cos even you let go the throttle, the cars travels at the same speed...... and its almost too quite.... ;D

[NiMo]

As I have said in another BL post, I'm keeping an eye on it all.
I left Electric due to the amount of time required to strip/skim/rebuild/brush/bed-in a motor between heats just to stay competitive, but after running both IC and electric during 97/98 I went totally IC in '99 due to the much lower maintenace times (a wipe with a paint brush) and much lower running costs.

When I look at the price of chassis kits for IC and Electric nowadays there is not much difference, and what you pay out for in electric for motor/ESC/Batteries/Servo/Receiver actually cost more that you pay for in IC for a Motor/Muffler/Fuel/Servo's/Receiver.
So for a newcomer who wants a competitive car from scratch a brushed set up is no cheaper than a BL set up, both cost more to start up with than an IC Scale Rubber set up, but BL should work out cheaper than both Brushed Electric and IC in the long run.

I would like to do some Electric racing again as I would have more local tracks to visit (WLRC/Racal/Southampton) but the thought of all that work on a brushed motor between runs is just too much for me.

As for BL, well I am a little dissapointed in the performance figures of the Novak system as I was lead to believe it had a lot more power, maybe it was the talk of Mikes system that I still remember.

BL in a Big6? you say the cars is not strong enough, well Laurenbacher (close) do a 1/5th car that run with a BL system and it is supposed to be faster and quicker than it's Petrol Brothers, and it has the tyres and chassis strength to go with it.

BL in BTCC, only 1 entry so far, and it's from someone I've never heard of, so Luke! where's your Aldershot entry? I need someone to convince me that brushless is worth getting now, or should I wait like others appear to be doing?.

[bob burr]

We would love to come to Aldershot Nigel, unfortunatley i think a new Business venture will prevent us, but if you still have spaces nearer the time (very much doubt it) we will come.
If you gear the Novak right and have a good car its far from slow beleave me, what you lack in top speed is more than made up for in exceleration, poss on some off the very big tracks you will suffer.

[NiMo]

Just found this American site with an article on BL motors.
This first part basically explains the motor (US style), but it's giving me the kind of information I've been after.
http://www.formula1-rc.com/articles/Brushless-Motors.asp
I'm looking forward to part 2.

[Terry]

Interesting, but essentially nothing new. Does however emphasise the resistance to change from those (the vast majority) who have already invested in brushed technology and their lack of motivation to buy-into what is quite obvoiusly far more 'innovative systems' than the existing systems they use.

Highlights the dilemma posed by sensored vs sensorless systems to the BL manufacturers. Sensored offers better control with less 'cogging' but limited 'insane performance potential'. Sensorless offers more 'cogging' (innately unable to eliminate it completely) but potentially 'mind-blowing' performance is on offer. Ultimately the question is do you really need 'insane' speed? The speed of a 10-turn motor (apologies S.C. for the speed comparison) is quite fast enough IMHO. Unquestionably we would all prefer cheaper racing without the maintenance aspect. I now hear modified drivers raving over some 'new' (rediscovered?) CS brushes that last for ages... great!! erm BUT, they cost £7.50+ a pair!!

My personal interest (if people wonder why I'm so enthused by BL) is in the implementaion of a BL system in which I am involved in the design. Even for an experienced electronics engineer BL offers a very interesting and worthwhile challenge. The 'holy grail' in BL systems design has to be to get the cost down but it all seems pointless at present with such a slow uptake. To most people BL is just seen as a 'big expense' they can't afford. To take the plunge right now is simply too much of a gamble.

[bob burr]

Im not so sure its the cost, as will there system be out off date in 4 - 6 months ?, a lot off drivers are asking are there any new systems in the pipe line, are Novak bringing out a faster motor etc.
£250.00 is not that much nowadays, but it is if what you have just brought is out off date in 4 months.
Its posible (and this is going to be very controversial)we would off had more take up on brushless if this year we had just made the Novak system legal.
Against everything that is fair from the manufactures point, but it would off ment people could buy and know they had at least 12 months with the system.

[Terry]

That's the thinking behind what we do at Barham. We've included the Novak SS in with modified and it seems to work out. We wouldn't prevent any other BL's being used but there does seem to be more support for a 'one class system' at present, it's still early days but hopefully it's the way forward.

We don't want to be controversial but maybe it has to be that way until other 'same spec' systems come out. In BL as with other classes we don't want the equivalent of say a 19-turn racing against a 27-turn, they all need to be the same. Just calling it "Brushless" is like calling all the current electric classes "Brushed", obviously not a good idea. The BRCA draft BL rules will hopefully be able to define what is a legal BL and what's not. A homologation list might be useful, even if at present it only had the Novak SS on it!!

[axpayne]

I think BL will be the future of our sport, but not sure when. At the club I help run we currently have 2 people running the novak systems. They have both brought them as they see BL as a low maintenance option. We split drivers based on racing ability and not type of motor.

The BL currently require a relatively large cash outlay, but I believe as more systems come on the market the price will come down.

I also believe there are 3 main types of people using RC cars
1) The dedicated racers who take part in major events, runs clubs and post items of boards like this. This may well be the smallest group, with most of this group resting BL for various reasons.

2) People who enjoy racing for various reason, have no major ambitions in the sport; see it as a social event and race at a limited number of locations. These people are currently buying the BL products due to the low maintenance option.

3) The fun drivers who never race the RC cars at events / clubs. From speaking with a couple of model shops, this I believe the where the bulk of RC car tend to land up. At the moment IC is what is being purchased and normally in the various nearly RTR.

IC has the advantage of putting the fuel in and being ready to play with. If BL's are more efficent and generate longer run times, when combined with the increased battery capacity this could be an alternate. The added advantage is reduced noise and no emmissions.

So I think the take up will be groups 2,3,1

[Terry]

Andrew you could well be right.

What I think will help to make BL more popular is if it was possible to go out and buy say a Novak or Trinity motor and run it with one of several BL speed controllers. It has been mentioned before and is not beyond the realms of possibility, after all it's what we do with brushed motors and ESC's at the moment anyway!!

[robertbrooks]

Hi,

I've just bought one of these Novak Super Sport brushless motors and I'm looking forward to running it!
I'm interested to read everyones comments in this thread. I do think that eventually brushless motors will be the future of our sport although for many reasons I think it will take some time for them to catch on completely.
I am surprised it has taken this long so far. A friend of mine imported an Aveox brushless system from the states about 7 or 8 years ago. Although designed for a model aircraft it fitted fine in his Losi XX buggy and the performance was seriously impressive. If you pick up a copy of an electric model flight magazine you will find that it is full of brushless systems!
The problem is that the BRCA cannot legalise any particular motor until it has been homologated and until one of the manufacturers decides to do this then the BRCA cannot make any particular motor legal. Until more people buy the motors, the manufacturers presumably aren't keen to get them homologated. Few people will buy the motors if they aren't approved and so nothing progresses.

I disagree with the comments that the outlay is expensive for brushless motors. Lets do the maths!
Lets say I'm a beginner and want to go racing for the summer and buy a brushed motor for £50 and a speedo for £120. I also need a lathe to skim the comm with (lets say £190 for the Eagle one with the diamond tip). Racing every week, skimming every meeting and replacing the brushes costs me for 26 weeks at £4 for a pair of brushes another £104. The total cost is £464.

Next summer will be cheaper. No speedo or lathe to buy but a new motor probably and more brushes so I reckon another £150 at least for the next year allowing for buying a new motor.
Racing more often and at higher level will require more motors or armatures and more brushes etc etc to remain competetive.
Or buy a brushless motor with speed controller for £245. Nothing to wear out except the ballraces, should last you for years.

I'm sorry but I can't see why anyone whould not want to race brushless when it becomes poplular. I could say that it is not in the interest of some of the manufacturers for brushless to succeed because they won't be able to sell us their motors & brushes at over inflated prices any more. Lets face it, they deliberately make the commutators wafer thin, so they wear out in no time and we have to buy new ones from them!! Thats me being cynical though ;)

I have bought my brushless motor because I am interested in the technology, I am keen for our sport to move forwards (at last) and because I want to save money. I am not trying to gain a competetive advantage or stop people from racing brushed motors who like taking them to bits and "tuning" them.

[nicholas mitchell]

brushless is even better when you can get the novak ss system for the states for under £150, then its even cheaper than a lathe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:)

[Hugh]

Hi roberrtbrooks
I’ve hade the Novak super sport for about 1 year. When I got it, it was very good but it became very slow then stop working completely. The gear ratio I used was in the manual. I had it sent off to be repaired. I got it back after 4 weeks. I ran it at the BTCC national at Aldershot, the lap times were as fast as the 19’s super stocks but Novak said that it should be the same as a 10 turn modified motor. So be warned that this brushless motor might not live up to your expectations. Have you heard of team Orion’s Vortex brushless speed controller and their motors? I would like to know what they are like and how fast it is ?

[robertbrooks]

"brushless is even better when you can get the novak ss system for the states for under £150, then its even cheaper than a lathe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Thats right Nicholas! And even better if you can get one from Australia for £115 (+ £10 postage!) on ebay!

Hugh, sorry to hear you had problems with your Novak BL. Do you know what went wrong with it and did it cost much to fix?
As for the performance, I'll have to wait and see. The Aveox motor needed gearing up a lot when I borrowed and ran it.
Heard of the Orion motors and seen them on sale but don't know much else about them, but would be interested.

[Hugh]

Robertbrooks, I sent it to CML but they did not tell me what went wrong but I did get a new one for free. But the new one sounds like a meat grinder I think that I will have to send this one off as well. This will be the 2nd Novak BL I send off to be repaired more money spend on postage. :mad:
I still feel that this Novak BL is the same as the 19’s super stock than a 10 turn modified motor. Can you say what performance you be getting from your Novak BL and what gearing you are using please.

[robertbrooks]

Hugh,

The motor hasn't turned up yet, its got to come from Australia. I'll let you know how I get on with it. I plan to run it in my Losi XXX buggy and the touring car. My experience with the Aveox brushless was that it needed high gearing, a lot higher than you would gear say a 13 turn motor. Obviously it depends on what track you are running on. At the time I don't think I had a big enough pinion for it.

cheers

Rob