Speed comparison of the SS

[Garry]

What sort of speed could you get from a Novak SS?

I mean, what wind would it compare to with normal brushed motors?

Thats assuming it was geared right in a touring car (Mission/ TC3 etc) with GP3300 cells.

[marcoski]

Altough initially thought to be as quick as a 12T, in practice, it is more akin to a 13T motor. Initially it will out accelerate a 12T, but the 12T will win on top speed.

[Garry]

Thanks Marcus, Have you tried the Novak HV yet? I'd like to know how the torque compares to a 12t.

[marcoski]

Not yet, the torque of the SS is already higher than a 12T at low RPM, but it will be interesting to see what the top end is like on the HV.....

[BarnStormer]

Nice to see a brushless section Marcus especially as thats all I'm running all year

[marcoski]

You are most welcome Luke, I hope you will share your experiences with it please :)

[Remo]

Had a chance to compare it again... it is quicker that a 19T, but its not as fast as a 12T. It does have alot of grunt but personally it doesnt have the grunt of my Fantom 12T, nor has it got more top end and the brakes are not as good either. It is a smoother drive and you soon learn you have to adapt your driving due to the lack of motor drag... Also you will enjoy the extra run time... a Monster would dump about 3 laps before me!

Haven't really tried its stock mode yet as having too much fun with it with the limiters off!

[Remo]

BTW Luke,

Can you let us know how you would gear yours in Stock mode and Unlimited mode at Bedworth? Thanks!

[Steve Cann]

I allowed the use of a brushless motor in stock mode at a recent "Bonus" meeting. It was like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. In this mode it blew the opposition away including some national regulars. There was no similarity in performance.

[BarnStormer]

I dont run stock but for modified i gear at 33 or 34/69.
Doesn't seem to make much of a difference really.

[BarnStormer]

Remo I agree with you about the breaking, I just set it to most fierce setting, and just turn my max brake down on my transmitter.

[Toon]

Posted by: Garry
Have you tried the Novak HV yet? I'd like to know how the torque compares to a 12t.

The Novak HV brushless motor is 550 size, and it's controller is designed for 10-14 cell operation.

Basically it's been designed for use in the Traxxas E-Maxx, where *both* of the stock brushed Titan 550 14.4V motors will be replaced by one HV brushless motor. It is due to be released in late February.

The SuperSport 5800 is the only Novak brushless setup that is specifically designed for use in a 1/10 electric tourer/buggy.

[John Robson]

Hi All I must agree with your comments re it not being compatible or similar to a 12t, I would put it closer to a 14t myself.
I was permitted to run at the last round of the BRCA Mod Meeting last year, at West London, not sure where I qualified as they put me in last place before I could see, anyway enjoyed the day, what I will say is, I never had to touch the motor and still have not touched it.
I have been running it at club level and CML Carpet Masters ever since, I tend to run it on 23/69, any higher and it tends to cut out on over heat.
I tried the 27t version, not the program setting, Novac now do 2 types 1 being the Mod Version, and now a 27t Version, both using the same control unit, the acceleration of 27t version is quicker than the modified, but peaks out sooner, and is more controllable than the Modified Version.
I would certainly not mix these with the Standard 27t Motors as they would make the 27t Standard Class look silly.
One little tip which I was not aware of in the first kits, is if you set the Controller up in either mode 5 or 6 this is the restricted mode, after you have set your throttle points up, the Blue light flashes, you have to turn the unit off, for it to work, I was a bit concerned at first thinking their was a problem with it, in the latest kits they have included a message explaining this.
As for braking, my car will stop on a six pence, but that could be due to the low gearing I pull indoors, at West London I was on 33/69 and still had plenty of braking.

What I will say is I think this will in say 2 years time be where were at, and the Motors we use today will be a thing of the past!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1.
Have fun everyone, the days of spend spend spend & skim skim skim all day are gone.
Thats my opinion anyway.
:P ;D ;D ;D

[bob burr]

Hi John, Luke found it was not that there was not enough brake, but depending on how you set it either too much or not enough, he is now set on prog 4 but has the brake turned down on his transmiter.
I think some of this is getting used to a diferent type of braking as you have no motor drag in nuetral.
Luke would agree with you 100% and has sold all his ordinary motors and speedo and would never go back to skiming and re brushing motors, as he says its put the fun back into his racing and gives him more time to set his car up.

[Terry]

... and have time to watch the racing and socialise. No more nose to the comm lathe. Definately puts the fun back into racing ;D

[Terry]

Steve said

I allowed the use of a brushless motor in stock mode at a recent "Bonus" meeting. It was like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. In this mode it blew the opposition away including some national regulars. There was no similarity in performance.

I'm sure in future "brushless stock" or "brushless super stock" or "brushless modified" - whatever they get called by those used to the "old ways" will all be racing happily. No brushless need be (or wish to be?) separated into "stock" and "mod" They all race together as "brushless" having set up the performance to whatever they can drive fastest with.

What I am saying is maybe we should be embracing new ways of racing. If it's fun and people support it then that's all that matters. Rather than classify drivers by their motor they could be classified by their ability instead.

At the TRAC (Touring Racing All-Classes) meeting today at Barham the A final consisted of super stock and stock drivers, no modifieds and the winner of one A final leg was racing 27T stock! (the only driver using Sorex 20's so may be he had an advantage?)... us mod etc die-hards have to think up a good excuse!! :-

I would say racing round Barham my SS is closest to a 13 turn motor. It depends on the track you race on and whether it's fast and flowing or tight and twisty etc. Brakes are no problem, what takes more getting used to is the car 'rolling-on' into tight corners. After a few races you allow for it and soon forget your "old" type brushed motors ;D ;D

[bob burr]

Poss need some more threads starting on here ?.
I think the 27t and 19t guys are split into 2 or 3 groups, 1 those who cant handle more speed eg newcomers, 2 those that get fed up with the cost of racing a mod but love the speed, and those that get fed up of being beat by the Dave Spashets all the time because they cant afford new brushes every run.
So i think in a couple of years you will have a 27t class for newcomers, a brushless class, and poss the die hard mod drivers who love to throw money away ;D

[Steve Cann]

Dave Spashett wins meetings because he can afford to change his brushes every run!!!!

Nothing to do with talent then????

[Steve Cann]

Terry

The question is speed comparison of the SS. My conclusion is there's no comparison in the "stock mode" although the "blurb" issued with the system will have you believe this mode is based on a typical stock motors performance. My question. What stock motor?

For the time being we will have to mix the motors until enough people can afford the purchase of the new system or until some become available at a more affordable price, new or secondhand.

I appreciate in the fullness of time this situation will change.

[Terry]

Steve said


My question. What stock motor?


A brushless stock with all entrants running same motor, ESC and same 'stock' setting? It possibly could be an attempt to encourage a BL stock class as envisioned by Novak. Rather depends on how things progress, obviously it's still very early days.

Steve said


Dave Spashett wins meetings because he can afford to change his brushes every run!!!!

Nothing to do with talent then????

Yes, but he probably wouldn't win without the new brushes every run!! But racing brushless he (and everyone else) wouldn't have to afford brushes, because racing brushless there are no brushes to buy!!!! ;D

[Mark Christopher]

Steve said


My question. What stock motor?


A brushless stock with all entrants running same motor, ESC and same 'stock' setting? It possibly could be an attempt to encourage a BL stock class as envisioned by Novak. Rather depends on how things progress, obviously it's still very early days.

Steve said


Dave Spashett wins meetings because he can afford to change his brushes every run!!!!

Nothing to do with talent then????

Yes, but he probably wouldn't win without the new brushes every run!! But racing brushless he (and everyone else) wouldn't have to afford brushes, because racing brushless there are no brushes to buy!!!! ;D


I blame the Aliens Terry!!!

[bob burr]

Dont want to get of track on this as racing will never be totaly equal, there will always be people with more talent or more money, BUT it shouldnt be down to the fact that you can afford to skim a brand new motor right down so there is virtually no com left and things like that, and that is where i think Brushless will come into its own.

[Doomanic]

I agree with Bob, not wanting to devalue the skills of any of te top drivers, but what would the gap between them and us be if they had to pay for all their gear?
Unfortunately, brushless motors will only move the emphasis from motor maintainence to cell performance. The availability of the very best cells will drop as the team drivers take the cream of the crop, probably several times per season.

[V6NUT]

I agree with Bob, not wanting to devalue the skills of any of te top drivers, but what would the gap between them and us be if they had to pay for all their gear?
Unfortunately, brushless motors will only move the emphasis from motor maintainence to cell performance. The availability of the very best cells will drop as the team drivers take the cream of the crop, probably several times per season.

The majority would still tan our behinds ;D ;D

[Steve Cann]

Doom

There I was thinking that I was leading them on with regard changing brushes to allow me to deliver the coup de grace. What about cells?

Then you stepped in and stole my thunder!

An answer that I have had run before me in the past regarding Nationals is that you register X number of cells at the start of the season and these are the only ones you may use for that championship. Bit like full-size BTCC where they are limited to the number of engines they can use in a season. Would be an absolute pain to police but maybe achievable if enough volunteers were willing to aid with scrutineering.

[Doomanic]

Sorry. :-[ ;D

[Terry]

Cartman

Could well be aliens... or "them" forces beyond our comprehension and our control!! :o ;)

Doom

Either you're with us and one of us, or you're one of "them" and against us...
whatever you do don't look >>HERE (http://www.rcracechat.com.mirror.sytes.org/forum/index.php?board=128;action=display;threadid=8305;s tart=15) << It proves you're being watched, there's aliens watching you!!! 8)

Steve

I like the sound of that idea, but doubt it would ever become a reality for fairly obvious reasons and not due to scrutineering problems. I always did wonder why, to make a full-size analogy there is no scrutineering to check the size of the fuel tank or the octane rating of the fuel. It's taken as read that the cells are what the labels say they are... can of worms best kept unopened... because...

When the long awaited 'competition' Novak BL system (rather than the current 'SS' sport version) is available the speed comparison will reveal that the competition spec BL has equivalent power and speed to say a 5 or 4 turn brushed motor but with the controlability of a 12 turn and the power consumption of a 10 turn. Then it will mean that 'team' cells will have no advantage over 'best' cells because even 'good' cells will offer hair-raising speed and acceleration. Car set-ups and tyres will become critical to keep cars driveable at the limits of adhesion. Now that's what I call fun!! ;D

Dave Spashett wins meetings because he can afford to change his brushes every run!!!!

Nothing to do with talent then????

Doesnt he get GIVEN every thing any way?

[BarnStormer]

couldn't agree more Terry, any idea 'roughly' when the 'competition' Novak BL system will be out?

[PDW]

Erm.... clang? (sound of spanner in works!)

Since the new V2 motors from Peak/Orion are currently being used at World Champs level with no rebuilds during 14 runs, and in 1/12th with no rebuilds for about 6 meetings, how does that make a brushless any advantage?

And, since you are all talking about having other brushless motors in your boxes at £90 a pop, how does that make it any cheaper?

And, have any of you run your brushless in the wet yet? What happens when the water gets into the Hall Effect switches and the control wires?

And have you noticed how the development of brushless in aircraft now requires the purchase of a new motor/speedo combo about every month? - who can afford to keep up with all this?

I am not being a Luddite, but reading this makes me think your free second pair from Specsavers came with rose tints!! ;D

[Terry]

Luke

From what I've heard not for a while yet. Delayed, but not for technical reasons I think. But definately still worth waiting for cos it'll be FAST ! ! ! ;D

[Remo]

some have rose tints and some have mirrors on the inside ;)

advantage? no rebuilds... not even after 14 runs.... but probs wont fit in a 12th LOL!

after speaking to several top drivers using the V2, they all said they can run many runs without a skim, but comes the big events and they would still skim/maintain their motors regularly as a matter of course, just like many team drivers run a pair of new brushes per run... :o

how does it make it cheaper?... well... one BL motor... some bearing oil... erm... welll thats it... not a bunch of motors, a lathe, a bag of brushes and different motors ... diodes... caps...springs... serrators,... comm sticks.... arms... :P

...and no i dont know what happens if the hall switches get wet.... all i know is that the hall switches are sealed.... give it time when they become more popular then I am sure there will be wet versions...the only reason that they are not water proof yet is because they dont race in the wet in the US - the biggest market ... ;)

problem is the prices are a little inflated in UK and it is still a new thing... if you buy a V2 and a good speedo it will set you back 210 quid...compare to 250 for a BL.... 40 pounds... i'm sure i would have cained that 40 quid from motor assesories even if i dont blow another 170 quid on a lathe 12 months down the line... ;D

[PDW]

Remo - all good points, but no mirrors here (how d'you know I wear specs!! LOL ;D)

I'm glad you early-adopters are spending all the cash and developing the product!! There is a pic somewhere of a brushless levered into a 1/12th - but I mean levered!! I look forward to seeing you running your cars in the summer.

Cheers
Peter

[Remo]

I have tried racing mine and I do prefer the way it drives and because it has less motor drag it teaches you to use the brakes more regularly and it does add another dimension to driving an RC car.... now I mainly use it for small club racing and practicing... no one seem to mind even if I am racing with 19T boys cos I am still roughly finish where I normally would in the finals ... :-[

[Hugh]

Hi,
This is my first posting so forgive me if I’ve got it wrong. I've raced my Novak ss brushless for about 1 year in an open class at my local club. On the 1st time I raced it and got 1st place but over time it got slower and slower to the point that 19stocks were out running it. The power became on or off like there was no gentle acceleration then it stopped working. Is this normal for a brushless motor or have I just got a duff one? Any comments would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Hugh

[Toon]

It's definately not normal for a brushless motor to lose performance like that.

Check the motor screws for loosening.
Check motor bearing wear (have the bearings been oiled occasionally)?
Is the external power capacitor damaged or not installed?
Did the ESC ever overheat (blue light flashing)?

I'd suggest contacting Novak direct or through your LHS to get it repaired.

[Doomanic]

I allowed the use of a brushless motor in stock mode at a recent "Bonus" meeting. It was like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. In this mode it blew the opposition away including some national regulars. There was no similarity in performance.


How would it fare in Super Stock (19T) Class?

What are the brakes like compared to mods as stocks?

[Dave G]

dom,for me the novaks brakes were ok(nowhere near the modeltech ones but ok)..i could have them setup to brake pretty good,but im not a heavy braker so i suppose its what you are used to,for me, on par with what i would have had setup on a brushed motor.

i think they would be a little too quick for the 19 turn class,i suppose the only way to find out is to run one back to back at a meeting.
dave

[Remo]

Doom,
At recent test aldershot I found it quicker than 19T... tested it against someone who normally beats me like by a lap and I can keep up and even overtake him despite a few small mistakes... so I'd say its quicker than 19T.

Brakes are ok... not as powerful as 12T... but more like 19T if not a tad more... but it is more linear as the braking force does not seem to depend on the speed the car is travelling...

[Dave G]

the only problem i had was if the start line is on a slope then the car rolls off the start line :)

[Doughty]

the only problem i had was if the start line is on a slope then the car rolls off the start line :)


bip bip bip bip <pause> "Chocks away!!" <warble>

rofl

[Dave G]

hehe..its not funny trying to stop your car rolling away at the start line..imagine having no pinion on your car and having it on a slope..thats what the brushless was like :)..youve got your stick fully back knowing its not going to help but hey :)

[BarnStormer]

Generally on most outdoor tracks the brushless is about half a lap faster than what a 19 turn motor would be.

[BarnStormer]

Dave it sounds like you didnt have the brake on the speedo set to max because I tryed the other setting and the car just rolls when u jam on the brakes. I would say that u can only ever use the brake max setting otherwise u have no brakes.

[BarnStormer]

sorry read it wrond dave. U need a pit man to hold ur car intill u have to go. or a twig infront of ur car so u can drive over when u nail it, not to practical though lol