10.5T Brushless vs 19T Brushed

[Warren]

Im not going to start another thread on how fast each they are to each other, or how much they cost or maintenance blah blah blah. I just want to know, before i go and buy one what kind of performance im looking at for a 10.5T brushless motor.

Will i be looking at the same performance as a highly tuned motor that you'd find in A Final or something a little slower. For example a standard motor?

[vroomtshh]

Neither. If u buy a 10.5 you're looking at a motor a good bit quicker than a 19t, from what i've seen.

[yinkymoka]

Having got both ,the brushless is as good as any 19t you will ever own.Doesnt seem to be a bad one ,they are all good.Where buying brushed is a bit hit and miss.
Another good point its good every run doesnt need skimming and pulling apart every few runs.
On the down side its a bit more exspensive but that the performance and lack of maintenance more than compensates for the cost

[Skiddins]

Having got both ,the brushless is as good as any 19t you will ever own.Doesnt seem to be a bad one ,they are all good.Where buying brushed is a bit hit and miss.
Another good point its good every run doesnt need skimming and pulling apart every few runs.
On the down side its a bit more exspensive but that the performance and lack of maintenance more than compensates for the cost

Does that include sintered and bonded versions?

[Warren]

what im trying to say is, is the equivalency rated at a very highly tuned 19T brushed motor after a fresh skim and new brushes?

[yinkymoka]

in every case ive witnessed in TCs the brushless is up with the fastest .I now believe they should be in a different class .Brushless is superior 99% of the time.There might be the odd exception if you are lucky enough to find a mega 19t,but even then it wont burn off the brushless.

[Warren]

thank you, just the answer i was looking for :-)

[Skiddins]

in every case ive witnessed in TCs the brushless is up with the fastest .I now believe they should be in a different class .Brushless is superior 99% of the time.There might be the odd exception if you are lucky enough to find a mega 19t,but even then it wont burn off the brushless.


As almost everyone agree's, like it or not BL is the future.
I think they should introduce them among the 19t's, everyone will start to convert over and the Super Stock class can return to closer racing (more of a level playing field) as the stock classes are supposed to be.

Skiddins

[PDW]

And that future will, assumedly, include not being able to attract new drivers to any on-road class because having bought their £200 RTR, they now need another £200 to compete - it's a bad idea. BL has no future if there are no drivers!!

It is clear that there is no equivalence from 19T/27T to BL. If drivers want to run BL as a 'Stock' class, then set up a BL Stock Class. If Damien is correct, the BR 19T/27T will very rapidly die at Nationals. However, it won't die at Club unless you kill it - and simply allowing BL into the brushed class will kill it.

Don't shut the door on new drivers at exactly the time when electric RTR cars are better than they have ever been (making it easy to get into RC) but come with BR motors. No one should have a problem with BL Stock Classes, so set them up separately. Clubs use BRCA Rules for their drivers and newcomers, so leave them the BR Stock to use.

When the future arrives, we can let the BR STock classes lie.

[dan_kitty]

ive just noticed that the traxxas range of rtr's come with powerfull brusless systems boasting 65+ mph! yikes :) maybe a lot of smashed cars this coming xmas morning

[nismo]

It is clear that there is no equivalence from 19T/27T to BL. If drivers want to run BL as a 'Stock' class, then set up a BL Stock Class. If Damien is correct, the BR 19T/27T will very rapidly die at Nationals. However, it won't die at Club unless you kill it - and simply allowing BL into the brushed class will kill it.


Excatly. People need somewhere to start off, for a beginner to get an rtr car and then put a monster 27t motor in it and then head down to the club then upgrade the speedo and radio as they go along, undoubtably this is how we all started off.

Alot of people like the idea of it being level, I can see your point as you would be getting beaten by people who spend more time and money on their brushed motors tuning them up. Well all I can say about that is you can do the same. If you are getting beaten, well then you improve yourself until you are up to the level you want to be at.

I just bought a brushless lrp 4.5 and tc speedo. I can tell you now the only reason I bought that is because I know that I will be using it when I go racing and for a long time at that, a newcomer might change their mind and believe me that is alot of kit to throw away...the brushed kit is relativly cheap... Think about the children who ask for an r/c car for their birthday/christmas. I also think the brushed kit is a good learning system, it sure helped me know far more about electric motors when I was doing my gcses a month ago.

We NEED brushed in the stock classes, its, if you like the 'door' to the world of r/c.

So to be on topic, you shouldn't allow 10.5 and 19t together.

[yinkymoka]

the 10.5 and 19t are not a level playing field believe me.They should be seperate classes end of story.
Same thing for lipos

[Skiddins]

the 10.5 and 19t are not a level playing field believe me.They should be seperate classes end of story.
Same thing for lipos

What sort of difference are we talking?

Skiddins

[vroomtshh]

Not sure on the original 10.5, but the Pro one, is miles quicker. I cant even give you a specific difference, as they are just not comparable. Quick enough to propel a regular B finalist straight to the top of the A, even counting the fact that he made a lot of mistakes.

[NiMo]

It is not possible to have a BL motor that is identical (or even close) to a BR motor simply because of the way the motors deliver their power.
BL is all about Torque, so on twisty tracks, or slow corner areas the BL will dominate*.
BR is all about revs, so on flowing tracks and fast open tracks they will have the advantage*.
(* Mr average using of the shelf motors)

I have now run my 13.5 BL for 25+ LiPo battery runs (approx 20 minute runs), and has yet to have any form of maintenance, so I am now a believer in BL motors.
LiPo/NiMh are also on different power curvers (cant post links) and only have an advantage due to it being 170/180g lighter than an average 6cell pack, but then again I have just charged up 3 LiPo packs last night (indoors) ready for use this weekend (or if it gets rained off, next weekend), LiPo's can hold a near full charge for up to 6 months.

Maybe a simple rule like BL minimum weight is 50g heavier the BR weight.
(27/19T classes, BR minimum 1500g, BL minimum 1550g)
This would eliminate much of the advantage the BL gains through its torque.
(based on the WTCC Super 2000 rules where Diesel Turbo runs 30Kg heavier)

So this would mean for me to run a BL 10.5 and LiPo:
19T minimum weight 1500g
add BL penalty of 50g
add LiPo penalty of 20g
my minimum weight now for 19T class : 1570g

[exint2]

I think weight "penalties" are a good Idea but rather than just putting the weight onto the brushless we should lower the limit on the brushed, say 1475 br - 1525 bl, reason being that the lighter the car the less wear and tear on the parts , including the tyres, so you could actually reduce (slightly) the costs for the Br guys

[PDW]

Why do you want to try and make both motors run in the same class? The more you try to achieve (the impossible) equivalence, the more you restrict the expansion of BL. To make a transfer from one product to another, you have to create a new 'market'.

With a class for 10.5 BL, people have a choice to run BR or BL. If BL is the future, then the BR class will slowly dry up. Similarly, those new into the sport can run their BR RTRs, and then trade up to BL if they want to. As more manufacturers follow Losi's lead offering BL RTR kits, those drivers go straight into the BL class. Without this clear choice for drivers, we are simply holding back the uptake of BL.

Look what 5-cell BL did for TC Mod! What do you think is going to happen if drivers can choose 19T, or BL 10.5, classes for Stock? I'd bet my shirt that Stock class numbers would go right up, leaving a handful of people in 19T. Some poorly structured equivalence rules will leave people thinking they need 19T for one track, and 10.5 for another, and simply not bother because of the expense, etc.

Don't fiddle with things! Create a BL class, and run BL in that class. Why keep fiddling with weight limits, etc. to try and create an equivalence, because people won't know which to switch to in order to 'win'. If you want a new product to succeed, create a class (market) for it - and then we really can "let the market decide." As it stands, BL is probably being held back by all this dithering over equivalence.

Get your proposals into the BRCA Sections now, and have done with it. Stop fiddling on the periphery trying to achieve something that no one needs, or will understand. Keep it simple; BL10.5 and BR 19T!

PS - 10.5 turn will blitz any 19T any day in my experience.

[NiMo]

Which brings us back to a suggestion I said some 10 weeks ago but got rudely shoved out the door, that being to make a new class for BL motors to a minimum wind of 10.5.
Or was it the power supply to a maximum of 7.4v they didn't like.

I just feel a limited powered BL LiPo class is the low maintenance class some racers are waiting for, I know initial costs will be higher hence the need to keep a base class (27T ?)

[PDW]

There's a link to the 2007 AGM Proposal form from the TC Section of hte BRCA site - get that proposal in, Nigel!!

[OoliganRC]

good thread, but here's my spanner.

run 19T brushed with 6 cells
run 10.5 brushless with 5 cell.

i personally think lipo will never happen as as PDW keeps mentioning "COST"

however look at the new novak and lrp brushless systems.

the noval one has 3 options of motor and is usable with brushed motors and is very cheap
cant link so will try this instead


Novak's Extreme Sport Motor Systems
Novak’s EX Sport Brushless Systems are budget-friendly, making them ideal for R/C enthusiasts to upgrade to brushless and experience incredible power and starting torque, minimal maintenance, and longer runtimes.

Novak’s EX-Series Sport brushless systems are available in three motor winds:

EX8.5 Extreme Sport Brushless Motor: 8.5 turns; similar to a 15-17-turn mild-modified brush motor (#3430)
EX10.5 Extreme Sport Brushless Motor: 10.5 turns; similar to a 19-turn brush motor (#3431)
EX13.5 Extreme Sport Brushless Motor: 13.5 turns; similar to a 27-turn stock brush motor (#3432)
Each EX Sport Brushless Motor is available in a combo system factory-wired with Novak’s new XBR Sport Brushless ESC. Like all Novak brushless systems, the brushless speed control and brushless motor are factory wired and tested together, and are ready to “plug and play” straight out of the box.

The following three XBR Sport / EX Brushless Systems will be available:

XBR Sport / EX8.5 Brushless System (#3030)
XBR Sport / EX10.5 Brushless System (#3031)
XBR Sport / EX13.5 Brushless System (#3032)
NOVAK'S XBR SPORT BRUSH/BRUSHLESS ESC
The XBR Sport is more than just a sport ESC, it's extreme. It has the distinction of being the first Novak ESC to include two great features new to Novak products: Auto-Detect Brush Mode, which detects when a brushed motor is connected, and automatically switches the ESC to its Brush Profile; and Built-in Motor Rotation Selector, which allows the user to easily select the direction of the motor rotation.


XBR Brush/Brushless ESC
The XBR also provides the most protection you can get at a sport-level price, including: Water-resistant case, Built-in Li-Po Cut-Off Circuitry, Locked Rotor Detection Circuitry, Thermal Overload Protection, and a Built-in power output for an optional accessory fan.
FOUR PROGRAMMABLE THROTTLE PROFILES
Another XBR feature that breaks the sport mold is its multiple throttle profiles with full programmability, all without the need for a computer laptop. Within each of its four throttle profiles, the XBR has 4 Adjustable Parameters: Minimum Brake, Drag Brake, Dead Band, and Minimum Drive; the brush mode also includes Drive and Brake Frequency adjustability for further throttle customization.

The XBR is equipped with four user-selectable throttle profiles, two of which have reverse:

Standard Brushless Mode (with reverse)
Sport Brushless Mode (no reverse)
Marine Brushless Mode (25% reverse)
Racing Brush Mode (GTX performance with no reverse)
SPORT BRUSHLESS MOTOR FEATURES
Novak’s EX Sport motors also break the sport mold by including great features found on all Novak brushless motors like a convenient Solder Tab System for easy wire replacement; Sensor-Based Technology for excellent starting torque, low-speed drivability, and smooth acceleration; Thermal Overload Protection (when used with a Novak brushless ESC) that allows pack after pack to be run without fear of damaging the motor, battery, or ESC; and approximately 20% longer runtimes compared to brushed motors. Plus, the EX motors provide users the ability to upgrade or replace various parts like the front end bell/bearing and rear bearing (#5905) or rotor (#5906). The EX motors also provide users the option to upgrade the motor with a motor upgrade kit (#5923) to obtain the pro performance of the SS-Series of motors.

Each motor is factory hand-wound and is put through rigorous testing, including a final dyno test to ensure that each motor meets Novak’s rigid specifications.


EX Sport Brushles Motor
Each XBR/EX Sport Brushless Systems are factory wired and tested together, and are ready to “plug and play” straight out of the box.
The following three XBR Sport / EX Brushless Systems will be available:

XBR Sport / EX8.5 Brushless System (#3030)
XBR Sport / EX10.5 Brushless System (#3031)
XBR Sport / EX13.5 Brushless System (#3032)


XBR SPORT BRUSH/BRUSHLESS ESC SPECIFICATIONS
Forward/Reverse Forward, Brake, Reverse (brushless mode); Forward, Brake (brush mode)

Input Voltage 4-7 Ni-Cd/Ni-MH cells (1.2V/cell) or 2 Li-Poly cells
On-Resistance 0.0012 ohms* (brushless: FWD/BRK/REV); 0.00027 ohms* (brush: FWD/BRK)

Footprint 1.54” x 1.18” (39 x 30 mm)

Weight 2.84 oz. (80.7 g) w/wires; 1.49 oz. (42.2 g) w/o wires

Rated & Braking Current 120 amps per phase* (brushless); 480 amps (brushed)

Power Wires 14-Gauge

BEC 6.0 volt/1.5 amp

Motor Limit 8.5-turn brushless (at 6 cells Ni-MH); None (brushed)


Discrete Steps 512 Forward; 512 Reverse


Battery Plug Tamiya


Motor Plug None


Voltage Cut-off 6.25 volts (when Li-Poly Cutoff Circuitry is enabled)


*Mosfet rating at 25 degrees Celsius junction temperature



EX EXTREME SPORT BRUSHLESS MOTOR FEATURES
Sensor-based for excellent braking and low-speed driveability
Bonded Neodymium rotor (ROAR-Approved)
Oversized front bearing for increased load handling and bearing life
Ball bearings for smooth, low-friction operation

Provides approximately 20% longer run-times compared to brushed motors

Specifically designed for R/C vehicles

User-replaceable rotor (#5906), and user-replaceable front end bell/bearing and rear bearing (#5905), and can be upgraded for race-ready performance, which includes Novak’s Sintered Rotor (#5923)
Direct-Solder Wiring Tabs for flexible soldering options

Minimal maintenance

Thermal Overload Protection (when used with a Novak brushless ESC)

No cogging

Factory hand-wound and race-tuned

Meets all ROAR specifications

EX EXTREME SPORT BRUSHLESS MOTOR SPECIFICATIONS
Turns: 8.5 (#3430), 10.5 (#3431), 13.5 (#3432)
Design: Sensor-based
Motor Size: 540 Size: 2.08” L X 1.41” D (52.8 x 35.8 mm)
Input Voltage: 4-7 cells (1.2V/cell or 4.8-8.4 total volts) or 2 Li-Poly cells
Magnet: One-piece, bonded Neodymium
Watts: 225 (#3430), 195 (#3431), 165 (#3432)
KV (unloaded): 5,000 (#3430), 4,200 (#3431), 3,300 (#3432) RPM/Volt
Motor Size: 540 Size: 2.08” L X 1.41” D (52.8 x 35.8 mm)
Motor Weight: 6.73 oz. (190.8 grams)
Shaft Diameter: 0.125” (3.2 mm) [accepts all existing pinion gears]
Front Bearing Size: 3/8” x 1/8” (9.5 x 3.2 mm)
Timing Ring: Black
Motor Sleeve Color: Gold
Protection: Thermal


For information about Novak's brushless motors click on the following links:

Velociti Brushless Motors (#3403, #3404, #3405, #3406, #3407)
SS Pro Brushless Motors (#3408, #3410, #3413)
Crawler Brushless Motor (#3418)
HV6.5 High-Voltage Brushless Motor (#3426)

[OoliganRC]

on further research these are available in the US for approx 175$, thats under £100.

for those sceptics....if you run brushed 19T or 27T are you telling me that a Brushed motor, speedo, brushes and time spent rebuilding is gonna cost lest that £100.

If you say yes we all know thats a lie. :P

as for whether they run at the same time...why not.....

we ran 4 cell as an experimental class for nationals...why not do the same here....4 cell is no go, 5 cell is definate....27T and 19T should be dropped as a national class. tbh if you wanna do nats 5 cell mod is the way to go.

the other championships (slcc, stcc, torc, btcc etc) cater well for them.

Our nationals have lost there way.....

in my mind we have ONE national champion the mod one, the rest are interlopers.

if your that good at 27T and 19T why dont u race mod......??

:)

[NiMo]

if your that good at 27T and 19T why dont u race mod......??

That has been answered before, but as you missed it:

Some do not have the ability to drive at warp 9, but at warp 4 (or warp 6) they exel

Here would be my choice for National Classes:
27T Stock - 6cell Sub C 7.2v Max - 1500g
10.5 Brushless - NiCd/NiMh/LiPo/LiIon max 7.5v - 1450g
Modified - 5cell Sub C 6.0v max - 1350g

and drop 19T

[PDW]

Please, don't drop 19T. This is the BR class that new drivers can get into with their RTR at Club. Clubs use the BRCA classes as the basis for their racing, and if you don't have guidance and presence for a class, then they are rudderless.

I'm sure all this new technology is very attractive to existing drivers, but that is not the objective of BRCA Rules - it is to PROMOTE the sport. If there isn't a class that new drivers can get into easily and cheaply, then you deny the Clubs their life-blood - you could say the sport is demoted. Also remember that this obsession with the classes is a TC thing, and is not something that 12th, Off-Road, Micros, Oval and Stock Cars give one fig about. Try to see that the new classes are required by TC, and it gets easier to make progress.

Create new classes for TC by all means (and create the 'market') but don't get rid of what is already there for the Clubs and the new drivers.

[Steve Cann]

Here would be my choice for National Classes:
27T Stock - 6cell Sub C 7.2v Max - 1500g
10.5 Brushless - NiCd/NiMh/LiPo/LiIon max 7.5v - 1450g
Modified - 5cell Sub C 6.0v max - 1350g

and drop 19T



Splitting the c'ship has failed, again, this year :( ... So, hopefully, Nationals won't go down that route next year...

The relatively low turn out for Super Stock (19t) at Nationals is not a true indication of the strength of following for this class... Look at entries for KO GP five heats of Stock Touring(27t), nine of Super Stock and six for Super Touring(5cell)... I think this is also borne out by the entry levels for 19t at the other multi-venue series...

[Barry_Hughes]

if your that good at 27T and 19T why dont u race mod......??

:)

Ever thought that some people don't want to race mod, even if they are v good with 27T or 19T.

Ever thought that when you get really good in one class you might want to stay in that class whether it be 27T, 19T or Mod

Ever thought some clubs don't run mod so you want to run motors that are of benefit for your club racing

[NiMo]

Ever thought that some people don't want to race mod, even if they are v good with 27T or 19T.

Ever thought that when you get really good in one class you might want to stay in that class whether it be 27T, 19T or Mod

Ever thought some clubs don't run mod so you want to run motors that are of benefit for your club racing

Slightly off topic but .....
I have recently done a few meetings with a TT01 running a Sports Tuned motor and kit slicks, although I'm only doing 15 laps (Aldershot) I'm finding it much more fun than running the IC Nitro car where I do 21/22 laps.

Speed can also kill fun, hence the need for slow motion classes.

Also I have just seen that Novak has released a 17.5 Brushless
(not yet on their web page)

[NovakTwo]

Speed can also kill fun, hence the need for slow motion classes.

Also I have just seen that Novak has released a 17.5 Brushless
(not yet on their web page)


The SS Pro 17.5T information can be found here:

SS17.5 Pro Brushless Motor (http://www.shopatron.com/product/part_number=3417/135.0.0.0.0.0.0)

We originally developed this wind motor for some domestic "spec" racing, where the race directors thought the 13.5T motors were simply too fast for drivers just getting into brushless.

We will also be releasing our 21.5T SS Pro motor in the next 3-4 weeks.

[OoliganRC]

Please, don't drop 19T. This is the BR class that new drivers can get into with their RTR at Club. Clubs use the BRCA classes as the basis for their racing, and if you don't have guidance and presence for a class, then they are rudderless.

I'm sure all this new technology is very attractive to existing drivers, but that is not the objective of BRCA Rules - it is to PROMOTE the sport. If there isn't a class that new drivers can get into easily and cheaply, then you deny the Clubs their life-blood - you could say the sport is demoted. Also remember that this obsession with the classes is a TC thing, and is not something that 12th, Off-Road, Micros, Oval and Stock Cars give one fig about. Try to see that the new classes are required by TC, and it gets easier to make progress.

Create new classes for TC by all means (and create the 'market') but don't get rid of what is already there for the Clubs and the new drivers.


Im not talking about deleteing the class, the ruleset should be left in the handbook, but at NATIONAL EVENTS Sanctioned by BRCA to find the BEST DRIVER in the UK.......it should be OPEN MOD albeit Brushed or brushless.

OUR country has the WC, andy moore......he races mod....
previous WC we have had all race mod.....

Yes Keep 27T and 19T for the clubs, but nationals should be 1 class, this should be mod.....the nationals are to find the top drivers.......

after 3 years i agree thats not me.

Clubs can run whatever they like...get enuff of one type run the class.
Make the rules up....this worked to a point at west london with the brushless 13.5 until a select few apparently used sintered rotors when the "gentlemens" agreement was to use bonded only.

Ever thought it could be the clubs that are stopping new drivers from joining, because they are using such a rigid ruleset?

new guys turns up at a club with his car, your gonna scare him off when he suddenly realises that hes gonna run a mile when he finds his shell is illegal, his motor is not spec, wrong tyres.....all just becuase he bought it a bargain from ebay....

as said before BRCA handbook is the rules for national meets and guidelines for clubs to follow if they wish.

Just my view, be it wrong or right

[OoliganRC]

Im not talking about deleteing the class, the ruleset should be left in the handbook, but at NATIONAL EVENTS Sanctioned by BRCA to find the BEST DRIVER in the UK.......it should be OPEN MOD albeit Brushed or brushless.

OUR country has the WC, andy moore......he races mod....
previous WC we have had all race mod.....

Yes Keep 27T and 19T for the clubs, but nationals should be 1 class, this should be mod.....the nationals are to find the top drivers.......

after 3 years i agree thats not me.

Clubs can run whatever they like...get enuff of one type run the class.
Make the rules up....this worked to a point at west london with the brushless 13.5 until a select few apparently used sintered rotors when the "gentlemens" agreement was to use bonded only.

Ever thought it could be the clubs that are stopping new drivers from joining, because they are using such a rigid ruleset?

new guys turns up at a club with his car, your gonna scare him off when he suddenly realises that hes gonna run a mile when he finds his shell is illegal, his motor is not spec, wrong tyres.....all just becuase he bought it a bargain from ebay....

as said before BRCA handbook is the rules for national meets and guidelines for clubs to follow if they wish.

Just my view, be it wrong or right

Im assuming my view from the TC section....I wouldn't dare to venture into the others until I race them.....not gonna happen.

The TC section has become too complicated with split venues etc etc.

the members of the TC section are all aware of this and we need to seriously sort it for next season

[gramey]

And that future will, assumedly, include not being able to attract new drivers to any on-road class because having bought their £200 RTR, they now need another £200 to compete - it's a bad idea. BL has no future if there are no drivers!!

It is clear that there is no equivalence from 19T/27T to BL. If drivers want to run BL as a 'Stock' class, then set up a BL Stock Class. If Damien is correct, the BR 19T/27T will very rapidly die at Nationals. However, it won't die at Club unless you kill it - and simply allowing BL into the brushed class will kill it.

Don't shut the door on new drivers at exactly the time when electric RTR cars are better than they have ever been (making it easy to get into RC) but come with BR motors. No one should have a problem with BL Stock Classes, so set them up separately. Clubs use BRCA Rules for their drivers and newcomers, so leave them the BR Stock to use.

When the future arrives, we can let the BR Stock classes lie.

:) Unless I'm much mistaken the future is already here, brushless motors have been used in other fields of RC for some time and now there readily available for cars.
As with anything else, computers, mobile phones, camera's, as the market expands so the relative cost will be driven down by the market opening up. As a consequence more and more RTR kits will undoubtedly come with BL motors.
Why are so many people adamant about holding back progress?
Once you reach the stage where manufacturers feel compelled to put BL set ups in their RTR's then surely the inherent benefits of a BL system will attract more people to the sport. This will never come about however if all we have are dinosaurs in the sport trying to stop the clock from turning.
Do these same people want to go back to 1400 Nicad cells, mechanical speed controllers, friction damper shocks. Do they want to keep their 35mmm wet film camera, 133Mhz PC , Ford Escort carb engined car etc,etc.?.............thought not.
Stop living in the past and get with the times, introduce regulations that allow the use of BL systems and let people decide which they want to race.:)

[Barry_Hughes]

Ever thought it could be the clubs that are stopping new drivers from joining, because they are using such a rigid ruleset?

new guys turns up at a club with his car, your gonna scare him off when he suddenly realises that hes gonna run a mile when he finds his shell is illegal, his motor is not spec, wrong tyres.....all just becuase he bought it a bargain from ebay....

as said before BRCA handbook is the rules for national meets and guidelines for clubs to follow if they wish.

Just my view, be it wrong or right

Good contridication there!!

I think you hit it when you say BRCA handbook is for national meets.
Most clubs do not follow the rules rigidally regarding shells etc.
So anyone who turns up can normally run the car, the main restriction if any of most clubs in this area is the motor, so it is just a case of getting hold of the correct motor. At our club we would even loan a motor for the meeting to ensure the person could race

[Barry_Hughes]

:) Why are so many people adamant about holding back progress?
Once you reach the stage where manufacturers feel compelled to put BL set ups in their RTR's then surely the inherent benefits of a BL system will attract more people to the sport. This will never come about however if all we have are dinosaurs in the sport trying to stop the clock from turning.
:)

Do you really think that anyone thinking of entering the sport by going into LHS is really going to be attracted by brushless, I think not.

As for the so called dinosaurs, I presume you include me in that because until the systems are more stable in the development i.e. non sintered, sintered, and the parity can measured more against Brushed we will not allow them at the club.

BL systems will come into the sport - as will many other developments, but they will come when the regulations are written to ensure equality and safety of use.

[jordys rdx]

hi, i agree with gramey!!

i think brushless is the route because of the lack or miantiance,brushes, skimms needed. so it is not a on going cost like the brushed motors.

also you can save money on the brushless. for beginners who would want a reasonably competative motor and speedo just to get started with as all beginners do they could get the cheaper motor and the cheapest speedo, and yet still have a good setupbecause brushless hasnt got a huge range of speed controllers, therefore being more evenly matched cars.

move on with times go with brushless. it is the way forward, people will benifit. and if people really want clubs may be able to put another class for lipo. for people in serious needs of speed.

jordan

[jordys rdx]

or like it got said in a earlier post. as brushless is already cheaper yet some people say faster. why dont you drop 19 turn superstock, and run 10.5 brushless, with 5 cells. and a lower wieght limit. so basically it will be abit faster than a 19turn down the straight cos of extra grunt from motor, faster cornering speed cos of less wight.

all this would benefit the drivers in this class because...

less weight = less wear and tear on parts.
less weight = more speed in some respects.
less weight = less wear on tires therefore not having to buy tires as often.
5 cells = when buying cells you dont have to buy as many therefore cheap.

so your gettin alot more for alot less.

jordan

[Mark Christopher]

Do you really think that anyone thinking of entering the sport by going into LHS is really going to be attracted by brushless, I think not.

As for the so called dinosaurs, I presume you include me in that because until the systems are more stable in the development i.e. non sintered, sintered, and the parity can measured more against Brushed we will not allow them at the club.

BL systems will come into the sport - as will many other developments, but they will come when the regulations are written to ensure equality and safety of use.

????

have you asked any model shops which are now most popular for club racing and newbies, can tell you my local shop is selling more brushless
look at the nosram budget speedo and brushless its about £20 dearer than brushed equvalent
but then no maintence, nothing to wear out!!

what an earth is not safe about brushles?

[jordys rdx]

????

have you asked any model shops which are now most popular for club racing and newbies, can tell you my local shop is selling more brushless
look at the nosram budget speedo and brushless its about £20 dearer than brushed equvalent
but then no maintence, nothing to wear out!!

what an earth is not safe about brushles?


exactly, we must all go brushless. and personally i like the idea i read earlier and rementioned in my post above. 5 cell 10.5 brushless. what could be better? no maintance, less wear and tear on parts, less tyre wear, less weight = faster acceleration therefore you can afford to gear up and get even more speed out of your car.

ITS A NO BRIANER gooooooooo brushless

jordan

[gramey]

Do you really think that anyone thinking of entering the sport by going into LHS is really going to be attracted by brushless, I think not.

As for the so called dinosaurs, I presume you include me in that because until the systems are more stable in the development i.e. non sintered, sintered, and the parity can measured more against Brushed we will not allow them at the club.

BL systems will come into the sport - as will many other developments, but they will come when the regulations are written to ensure equality and safety of use.

:) Barry, The reference to dinosaurs was a generalisation of the attitude of some, not a personal comment directed at one person, if you want to wear that cap it's up to you.

"Do you really think that anyone thinking of entering the sport by going into LHS is really going to be attracted by brushless, I think not."

I don't see why not, when brushless becomes full accepted, as indeed it inevitably will, then as I said costs will come down and there will be RTR's available with BL systems. It's certainly no more than asking someone new to the sport to buy one class of car and expecting them to lose half their money when they want to move to TC's.

I'm not sure where the need for equality or parity is with brushed motors, you could have the basic equivilants in the same races and the points split in BR & BL. It's no different to someone racing their privateer GSXR 1000 in BSB against the full works team bikes. They both get points but for their respective class.

One question though Barry, if brushed is so evenly matched how come we can't get the same speed out of our over the counter motors that the Bakers, Sanders etc. get? I'm not talking about driving, purely speed, on the straight their cars walk all over ours, irrespective of running identical gearing.

I just thought I'd offer my 2 pence worth, even if it's a waste of 2 pence as your the boss so chances are I'm banging my head against a brick wall anyway.:)

[jordys rdx]

very good piont graham, i think that people gettin into the sport will not be put off if the brushless system is the choice. it is only 20pound more for the budget system from nosram.

PLUS is you go for my idea of the 5 cell. buyin a decent set of 6 cells now (SMC, IN4200'S) something alog those lines cost anythign upto 70quid. 5 cell is 10er cheaper.

also with the less wear and tear. if a beginer gets a set of SSB's usually a set of SSB's would last half a season maybe abit less. well with the 5cell they would last longer. but not just SSB's all tires aswell.

and do what graham said... make a different championship for the brushless systems, with 5 cells. but keep them in the same race. and if the normal 19turn brushed users find that everyone is goin to brushless then they may change or they can have 5 cells aswell to keep up with the brushless 10.5 boys. and before you know it you will have a strong brushless class because people want to save money rather than spend more and more money on the brushed motors.

brushless is the way to go forward for those reasons. especially with the 5 cell. because it will save you soo much more money over a typical season, than six cell. it really is a no brainer!!

jordan

[mkdean]

:)

One question though Barry, if brushed is so evenly matched how come we can't get the same speed out of our over the counter motors that the Bakers, Sanders etc. get? I'm not talking about driving, purely speed, on the straight their cars walk all over ours, irrespective of running identical gearing.




Try pushing the throttle stick forward a bit more Graham :D

[jordys rdx]

lol.

would you guys go for the 5cell,10.5 brushless, wieght limit 1375 or something like that.

if you think of all the reasons how it benifits it reli is a no brianer.

jordan

[OoliganRC]

Do you really think that anyone thinking of entering the sport by going into LHS is really going to be attracted by brushless, I think not.

As for the so called dinosaurs, I presume you include me in that because until the systems are more stable in the development i.e. non sintered, sintered, and the parity can measured more against Brushed we will not allow them at the club.

BL systems will come into the sport - as will many other developments, but they will come when the regulations are written to ensure equality and safety of use.

I think this shows the point gramey is trying to make......you cant compare a brushed motor to a brushless, they are different in so many ways but in virtue do the same thing.

its like comparing a jumbo jet to a push bike. different technology level and field but both transport people from a to b....

the main difference is brushed: skimming = time, brushes = cost, springs = cost, chance to blow up = medium - high if gearing wrong..
brushless: skimming = 0, brushes = 0, springs = 0 chance of blowing up is minimal as thermal cut out on speedo.

ok for stock and 19T two ideas:

using 4499/flines: national meeting 6 runs on saturday, 6 runs saturday.
the die hards do new brushes every run...so 12 pairs of brushes
skim every run 30 mins based on minimum wage £5.50

ok so that 11 x .5 = 5.5*5.5 = say £40, + brushes £15 = £55 + motor £30. + speed0 £100 for a good one = £185

so thats just for 1 meeting, 7 meetings ( no speedo )55 *7 = 385
oh dont forget another motor as you skimmed out the old one.....£30

so 185 +385 +30 = £600.... hard to find a brushless at that price..

[Barry_Hughes]

Graham,

Perhaps you should read my threads, I agree brushless will come, but now is not the time.

As for speed, I think you are making the big mistake everyone seems to make. It is not outright speed that wins races, the fastest car in a straight line doesn't always win.
As for the comment regarding Paul Sanders - I just remind everyone of the last STCC meet at Ipswich where there comments about Paul's speed and he must be using an illegal motor as his car was so fast. After one race the tag came off his rotor making it illegal and one of his times disallowed.
We then bought an armature off Mike Smith, straight out of his box for sale to anyone. Without any testing or other work this was put in Paul's car and he went even quicker.

So what does that prove? It is driving ability and car set up that gets the quickest times with consisent lap times. Not the motor.


Get these right and the times will improve.

[jordys rdx]

yh but, brushless isnt about the speed as much...its the fact of having no miantance, no brushes to buy, no springs to buy, no skimming needed. therefore no comm lathe needed. its just soo much better i dont see what is stopping the clubs from allowing them. especially is you do my idea.

jordan

[Barry_Hughes]

I think this shows the point gramey is trying to make......you cant compare a brushed motor to a brushless, they are different in so many ways but in virtue do the same thing.

its like comparing a jumbo jet to a push bike. different technology level and field but both transport people from a to b....

the main difference is brushed: skimming = time, brushes = cost, springs = cost, chance to blow up = medium - high if gearing wrong..
brushless: skimming = 0, brushes = 0, springs = 0 chance of blowing up is minimal as thermal cut out on speedo.

ok for stock and 19T two ideas:

using 4499/flines: national meeting 6 runs on saturday, 6 runs saturday.
the die hards do new brushes every run...so 12 pairs of brushes
skim every run 30 mins based on minimum wage £5.50

ok so that 11 x .5 = 5.5*5.5 = say £40, + brushes £15 = £55 + motor £30. + speed0 £100 for a good one = £185

so thats just for 1 meeting, 7 meetings ( no speedo )55 *7 = 385
oh dont forget another motor as you skimmed out the old one.....£30

so 185 +385 +30 = £600.... hard to find a brushless at that price..

But I don't spend anywhere near £600 on my motors for a year and can make A Finals at club meetings and at regional style meetings.

Any form of racing is as expensive as you make it.

So in brushless you had a non sintered rotor, you now need a sintered rotor = more expense. I have also heard stories that at the top level, which you are quoting, people now have more than one brushless motor to taylor it the track size and style = more expense.
The arguements can go on & on.

I will state again, brushless will come in, like everything new though it needs a bit of time for everything to settle down

[Barry_Hughes]

yh but, brushless isnt about the speed as much...its the fact of having no miantance, no brushes to buy, no springs to buy, no skimming needed. therefore no comm lathe needed. its just soo much better i dont see what is stopping the clubs from allowing them. especially is you do my idea.

jordan

5 cell doesn't make sense, it needs to be either 6 or 4 cell as these are std configuration of cells available.

The 19T checkpoint motors can go for 30 odd runs+ on one set of brushes without need for skimming.

Brushes don't need changing every heat in 27T, again mine will do 2/3 meetings without skimming or changing brushes and I am quite happy with how quick my car is compared to others

[Steve Cann]

5 cell doesn't make sense, it needs to be either 6 or 4 cell as these are std configuration of cells available.

The 19T checkpoint motors can go for 30 odd runs+ on one set of brushes without need for skimming.



Hello Barry 5cell packs are just as readily available as 4 & 6 from the better (more clued up?) matchers these days...

And yes, Checkpoint's with the right brushes can last for seemingly endless runs but would still advise a precautionary skim or two...

[jordys rdx]

hi...

yer but brushes used in the check piont motor i bet are made for longativity and not performance i bet compared to other brushes they dont compare at all. and i bet they loss even more power if they are not kept knew/fresh.

And if you say it can go for 30 odd runs without skim or brushes then that still means your gunna need a comm lathe aswell as brushes.

And as steve cann siad you may need a skimm to keep it running as fast as possible.

personally i think the brushless would still be the better rout for stock and 19 turn. its just so better. i mean why do you wana spend money on brushes, springs, comm lathe, diamond tip bits and the time. when you can just buy a brushless speedo/motor comp stick it in your car and drive. concentrate on gearing rather than worrying about brushes etc like you would on a brushed motor.

because im buyin a knew speedo and motor. i just want to make sure that i dont buy a brushed speedo and motor at a price of bout 170 pounds. just to find out that everyone has goe and brought a brushless. the only way i can get round it is buyin a brushless/brushed speed controller and then a brushed motor for now. but then agian for nosrams brushed/brushless speedo is a 170pound on its own.

jordan

[NiMo]

I will shortly be running a 10.5 Sintered GTB (under £150 from a good source)with 4800/4900 LiPo against some modified cars at Aldershot just to see what difference there is.
This will mean taking advantage of the EP Outlaw class, but will also mean no points, but someone has to do the homework on track instead of with their mouths.
I will post my progress results as they come.

I would also point out that local model stores in the three local town centres to me (Woking / Guildford / Aldershot) DO NOT sell 4 or 5 cell battery packs, but DO sell 6/7/8 cell packs but even then only in ready made stick packs.
So unless Mr Unknown knows where to look, he will only be going to one of these general model stores and not a dedicated RC Car store, so if we are targeting him then we can forget about 4 or 5 cell packs.

[jordys rdx]

ok mate let us know how it goes.

[Stuart Cann]

using 4499/flines: national meeting 6 runs on saturday, 6 runs saturday.
the die hards do new brushes every run...so 12 pairs of brushes
skim every run 30 mins based on minimum wage £5.50

ok so that 11 x .5 = 5.5*5.5 = say £40, + brushes £15 = £55 + motor £30. + speed0 £100 for a good one = £185

so thats just for 1 meeting, 7 meetings ( no speedo )55 *7 = 385
oh dont forget another motor as you skimmed out the old one.....£30

so 185 +385 +30 = £600.... hard to find a brushless at that price..

1 motor - £30
Infinity Brushes - £8.54 a pair

6 nationals plus KO and club racing, new set of brushes at each national MEETING and the KO.

So, (8.54x7) + 30 = 89.78

Results on this "measly" £90:

Multiple national A finals including a final win and podium, KO A final, WLRC club championship, club meeting wins at various other clubs as well. Pete, you need to tell these people who are spending £400 on motors to have a rethink, their money/sense ratio appears to be a bit out of whack.

Side note, the above mentioned motor finally skimmed out on me, last month, having just finished 3rd at the Bedworth national. :D

I will concede that brushless is the future, if nothing else it will stop all this utter bulls**t about how much it costs to race 19t competitively.

Then it will just move on to people talking utter bulls**t about how you have to buy a new speedo every 3 months to get the latest software!

Stu

[Barry_Hughes]

Well said Stuart, couldn't agree more

[PDW]

:) Unless I'm much mistaken the future is already here, brushless motors have been used in other fields of RC for some time and now there readily available for cars.
As with anything else, computers, mobile phones, camera's, as the market expands so the relative cost will be driven down by the market opening up. As a consequence more and more RTR kits will undoubtedly come with BL motors.What, the future so avidly taken up by those desparate for 3G mobile systems... or the future so much in our face about the internet while book sales go up year on year? Yes, the market will open up, but you ahven't created a market!! There is no choice between Bl and BR in Stock. Create a class for BL in Stock, then you ahve a market, then the market can decide. At the moment it is a fruitless discussion about equivalence that will go nowhere - "Build it, and they will come."


As for the so called dinosaurs, I presume you include me in that because until the systems are more stable in the development i.e. non sintered, sintered, and the parity can measured more against Brushed we will not allow them at the club.Spot on Barry!! I don't doubt that BL will be here to stay for the majority, but I have invested ££££s in BR, and I don't want to buy lots of different (new development) motors, a stack of rotors and many speedos in the next two years to keep up in BL. Even in 12th, people are already sitting three or more motors on their tables to find the right one for the track - that's almost £300-worth of motors!! In two years I'll buy what works. In the meantime it has cost me £40 for a couple of second-hand motors for next year, and both are verrrryyyyyy quick!! :cool:


hi, i agree with gramey!!

i think brushless is the route because of the lack or miantiance,brushes, skimms needed. so it is not a on going cost like the brushed motors.No, but the competitive drivers already have a range of rotors in the box, and are upgrading speedos to the latest spec. That costs a lot more than a few sets of brushes (see Steve Cann's post on this) and he opens his motors for the odd skim while others are opening their BLs to swap rotors every run - low maintenance?


what an earth is not safe about brushles?What's not safe is my wallet - rotors, speedos, new motors... That's a lot of money, Mark!!


5 cell doesn't make sense, it needs to be either 6 or 4 cell as these are std configuration of cells available.What???? All cells are now sold in 5s, so what is non-standard about that?

Why is it that we cannot create a separate class for BL and run it? Since that creates a market, anyone can choose, and we get to set some rules for the motors that encourage others to build them. Why do the pro-BL people keep telling me that this is the future, and berating me for not joining, when it is my choice not to join, and I don't want to throw away the ££££s I have invested in BR?

Create a class (market), run it and then see where the future lies - isn't that the right way to get BL used? Is that so hard?

[gramey]

Try pushing the throttle stick forward a bit more Graham :D

:) Mark, I think that's my problem, pushing the stick too far forward, only trouble is I usually do it in the wrong place!

That's why I made specific reference to straight line speed, I havn't got a problem with Pauls Sanders motor. Howard, Graham Baker & a couple of others have mastered the art of getting the best out of a motor which we havn't.
I never made any reference to Pauls motor being illegal as it would never cross my mind for him to do something like that. I was merely trying to illustrate the point that the brushed motor playing field isn't as level as simply buying the same motor over the counter as some one else.

I know it's set up & ability that win races, I'm getting better at the former but still lacking in the latter, most people at the club could do better with my car than I do.:)

[gramey]

:) Why is it that we cannot create a separate class for BL and run it? Since that creates a market, anyone can choose, and we get to set some rules for the motors that encourage others to build them. Why do the pro-BL people keep telling me that this is the future, and berating me for not joining, when it is my choice not to join, and I don't want to throw away the ££££s I have invested in BR?

Create a class (market), run it and then see where the future lies - isn't that the right way to get BL used? Is that so hard?

:) That's pretty much what we're asking for, a class for brushless, but initially it would need to be run in conjunction with an existing class. I'm not berating anyone for not joining but those that make the rules are stopping those that want to go brushless from doing so, bit dictatorial really considering we're supposed to live in a democracy?:)

[mkdean]

:) Why is it that we cannot create a separate class for BL and run it? Since that creates a market, anyone can choose, and we get to set some rules for the motors that encourage others to build them. Why do the pro-BL people keep telling me that this is the future, and berating me for not joining, when it is my choice not to join, and I don't want to throw away the ££££s I have invested in BR?

Create a class (market), run it and then see where the future lies - isn't that the right way to get BL used? Is that so hard?

:) That's pretty much what we're asking for, a class for brushless, but initially it would need to be run in conjunction with an existing class. I'm not berating anyone for not joining but those that make the rules are stopping those that want to go brushless from doing so, bit dictatorial really considering we're supposed to live in a democracy?:)

But Graham you can run brushless in the open class at coastal, i would say do that then maybe more will join in, thats how these things catch on by someone doing it first.

I will be interested to see it next time we are their at the next open meeting.

[gramey]

:) Next Open meeting I should be running the Novak XBR 10.5 all being well, as you can also run brushed I'll use the same speedo for both classes.:)

[Mark Christopher]

What, the future so avidly taken up by those desparate for 3G mobile systems... or the future so much in our face about the internet while book sales go up year on year? Yes, the market will open up, but you ahven't created a market!! There is no choice between Bl and BR in Stock. Create a class for BL in Stock, then you ahve a market, then the market can decide. At the moment it is a fruitless discussion about equivalence that will go nowhere - "Build it, and they will come."

Spot on Barry!! I don't doubt that BL will be here to stay for the majority, but I have invested ££££s in BR, and I don't want to buy lots of different (new development) motors, a stack of rotors and many speedos in the next two years to keep up in BL. Even in 12th, people are already sitting three or more motors on their tables to find the right one for the track - that's almost £300-worth of motors!! In two years I'll buy what works. In the meantime it has cost me £40 for a couple of second-hand motors for next year, and both are verrrryyyyyy quick!! :cool:

No, but the competitive drivers already have a range of rotors in the box, and are upgrading speedos to the latest spec. That costs a lot more than a few sets of brushes (see Steve Cann's post on this) and he opens his motors for the odd skim while others are opening their BLs to swap rotors every run - low maintenance?

What's not safe is my wallet - rotors, speedos, new motors... That's a lot of money, Mark!!

What???? All cells are now sold in 5s, so what is non-standard about that?

Why is it that we cannot create a separate class for BL and run it? Since that creates a market, anyone can choose, and we get to set some rules for the motors that encourage others to build them. Why do the pro-BL people keep telling me that this is the future, and berating me for not joining, when it is my choice not to join, and I don't want to throw away the ££££s I have invested in BR?

Create a class (market), run it and then see where the future lies - isn't that the right way to get BL used? Is that so hard?

then manufactures need to copy mamba's speedo technology which is fully updatable (software) and tunable via a pc or laptop

[PDW]

then manufactures need to copy mamba's speedo technology which is fully updatable (software) and tunable via a pc or laptopBut not on an Apple Mac, so useless to me!! It's the price I pay for having a computer that doesn't crash, and no one writes a virus for!! :cool: :p

[Mark Christopher]

im sure if the brushless manufactures thought there was a call for the need to make programes for dinosors with brushed motors and minority computors they would:D

[Barry_Hughes]

:) Mark, I think that's my problem, pushing the stick too far forward, only trouble is I usually do it in the wrong place!

That's why I made specific reference to straight line speed, I havn't got a problem with Pauls Sanders motor. Howard, Graham Baker & a couple of others have mastered the art of getting the best out of a motor which we havn't.
I never made any reference to Pauls motor being illegal as it would never cross my mind for him to do something like that. I was merely trying to illustrate the point that the brushed motor playing field isn't as level as simply buying the same motor over the counter as some one else.

I know it's set up & ability that win races, I'm getting better at the former but still lacking in the latter, most people at the club could do better with my car than I do.:)

I repeat straightline speed is not the answer Graham.
Look at the new mini class most of the cars with the same gearing have virtually the same straightline speed, the real difference we have noticed that Jimbo's & Les' cars ,due it seems to driving style, pull away from the bottom corner up the hill to the straight and they gain quite a distance there.
I never implied that you are calling Pauls motor illegal, but this is good point in case, my car is as quick as Paul's in a straight line, same with George but they both are able to get the speed through the corners far better than I can so that's why I am .5 sec behind them per lap.

Also regarding classes, as has been said, we did change the 19T class to an open class this was done by the majority requesting it. Brushless is allowed for those that want to run them. The same in offroad the majority wanted an open class with motors.

We started the new class for mini's because there was enough comittment from those who wanted to run it to make it worthwhile running it as a seperate class and also as a good introductory/low cost class for beginners. I am not racing a mini as I am supporting the offroad class as I was one who supported the suggestion to introduce the class

The vast majority at the club want us to keep the stock as a 27t brushed class, so that is what we doing until such time that the majority want to change. So I fail to see how this is a dictatorship.

[gramey]

:) I'm quite happy to go with the vast majority and so I should, all being well, be running BL in Open class and BR in stock until such time as the majority decide otherwise.
I've made my views on the subject known and not wishing to labour a point it's probably time this one was put to bed for now and just see what the future brings.:)

[PDW]

The future is already decided according to most - it's BL!! :D Why wait to see it, the sages say it's here... :D :D