Pre-Glued Tyres?

[paul.upton]

hey guys, if you are thinking of running a pre-glued tyre, i would suggest either the Sorex 24r or the LRP V-TECH 24. Both tyres work well on carpet.

Are you allowing aditive at the club? Most clubs in our region are now running slick tyres with additive, to keep with the trend i would suggest this.

Hope to make it to the club soon, just awaiting my KO Espritt 3

Paul

[Colin Williams]

Hi Paul. Dave tried some 24r's and Elliot has run V-Tec's recently, but they do suffer from a lack of grip for the first few laps - unless you use addatives I guess.

I think that if we started to use addative it would mean we couldn't use treaded tyres again after that, as John found after a trip to MK last year coated his dragons (without hime using it at all) and made them pretty useless on our track. It then means that all the youngsters will want/need to use addative as well and I am concerned that they would not wipe before racing and then coat the carpet with a load of the stuff!

On a very personal level, as I tend to unroll / tape / re-roll the carpet, I'm not keen to handle the carpet once it gets a layer of addative on it. Mind you I've not been to a track which runs addative myself - maybe I need a visit to some of the clubs in the region running it!

[Dave I]

Have to agree regarding the addative. I think I'm OK with allowing slicks, but would preffer if everyone (or at least the top 2 finals) ran the same tyres without addative or tyre warmers. At least that way everyone 'should' have the same amount of grip at the start of the race.

I found the slicks I tried we fine once some heat was in them, but by that time everyone running dragons were miles in front.

Just my thoughts

[paul.upton]

yeah i know what you mean, but the carpet vary rally gets covered in additive as most of them soak into the tyre or are off the tyre withing the tyres doing a full rotaion.

At silverstone we have people running slicks with addtive and people running T27's/Carpet Dragons and both can run along each other with no problems

Have never run slicks on carpet without additive, so may have to try this in the future.

i am going to have to pop to the club when i get my new radio (hopefully not to long away), am also waiting on the new losi luckily still got my old one

Paul

[oliverro]

Dave/Colin
As we've now moved this thread onto tyres could I suggest the club buys a set of each slicks mentioned by Paul and we can get all committee members and a few other members to run a test round just to get the widest feedback. If everyone is running the same then we're all in the same boat for the first few laps. Not so bad in the finals but could be tricky in the qualifiers.
I'm all for it if it means I can put the superglue away.
Rob

[Colin Williams]

Rob, since you, me and Dave make up the vast majority of the committee, then we can take the decision to buy a couple of sets - Dave what do you think?

Interesting on a quick price comparison:

LRP Vtec 24r, £12 a pair (mounted on wheels)
Dragons, £11 a pair (with inserts mounted on "standard" wheels)

so it's no cheaper, unless of course they last longer. If we do allow addative, that then adds to the cost (£8 for LRP carpet addative - not sure how long it would last).

If we do have any desire / inrterest in trying addative, then now would be the time to do it for two reasons.
1) we are between series, so controls can be set before we start the next one.
2) we should look to replace the carpet this year, so if it gets crappy it doesn't matter.

Colin

[paul.upton]

LRP additive is around £5-£6, and depending how liberal you are would last a long time, i think you will be surpised the amount of grip generated from slicks with additive.

The tyres will last untill they go through to the insert, (but like any tyres new ones will always be quicker) i have a set of V-TECH's which are 6-7 months old and are still fine, i use both sets and find the sorex had more initial grip but tend to loose it after 3-4 mins yet the VTECHS are quite good all round

Paul

[Dave I]

Lets get the tyres and LRP addative ordered then. One set of each and we can have a testing session with them. Thinking about it I ran aseason at MK doing their indoor series running dragons, various people ran slicks with addative and I dont remember suffering too much against them or having problems with the tyres.

It was Nathan who ran at the Racing Drome who had problems with his dragons afterwards I seem to remember.

Cheers

[paul.upton]

Thats it Dave, its all about trial and error. You wont know if you dont try!!

Once i have got my new radio i will come to the club, been a whille since i have managed to get up there.

Paul

[Colin Williams]

Dave,

I think it best if we go for the LRP combo, and get two cars worth, so that testing can be a bit quicker and you can see how it compares with say a "fast" and a "medium" driver using them. That way it eliminates any track differences as we move from week to week.

If you agree I'll get them ordered tomorrow from Microtech with some LRP blue addative and we should have them for Friday.

Colin

[Sphillips1974]

Both me and Kev are in favour of pre glued tyres its another part of the car set up that we dont need to think about! and if we all run the same wheel and tyre combo its fair, as for the addative we would have to see how much mess it makes.:)

[Dave Treacy]

Milton Keynes moved over from Carpet Dragons to the Sorex 24r premounts about a year ago.

We use additive (mostly the LRP carpet stuff) and have found no degradation in the carpet as a result, but lap times have improved significantly due to the additional grip generated by slicks.

The only time we find th track slippy is when we run 1/12th...the first heat is always the slowest as the carpet is still cold and not enough rubber has been laid down by the TC's...

[oliverro]

Colin
You have my agreement - hopefully the std wheel has a reasonable offset so doesn't rub on an XRAY!
Rob

[Colin Williams]

Milton Keynes moved over from Carpet Dragons to the Sorex 24r premounts about a year ago.

We use additive (mostly the LRP carpet stuff) and have found no degradation in the carpet as a result, but lap times have improved significantly due to the additional grip generated by slicks.

The only time we find th track slippy is when we run 1/12th...the first heat is always the slowest as the carpet is still cold and not enough rubber has been laid down by the TC's...

Thanks Dave, that's useful to know.

[Colin Williams]

Colin
You have my agreement - hopefully the std wheel has a reasonable offset so doesn't rub on an XRAY!
Rob

You can try them on Friday and see!

Alternatively, you can buy the tyres and inserts seperately and put them on another wheel - although that defeats the object of pre-glued!!

[Colin Williams]

OK, I've now got 2 complete sets of Vtec 24's - is it worth thinking about who wants to test them out this week?

Rob, I've checked on my T2 and the wheel clearance looks OK.

Colin

[oliverro]

I'll try a set out in practice & heat 1 and then pass them on.

[Dave I]

Not too sure what time I'm going to get there. We are moving into our new premises.

I would say Rob and someone around Simon Phillips ability would be best to try them first. Then possibly someone a little further down the abilities.

Not wishing to offend anyone, but, no point worying too much about the bottom heats as in reallity they wont know any different.

Hopefully I'll see you there.

[Sphillips1974]

What size are these new wheels and tyres? will they fit on my old EC? :confused:

Simon

[Colin Williams]

What size are these new wheels and tyres? will they fit on my old EC? :confused:

Simon

Do you need "special" wheels then?

If not, then they'll fit fine :)

[Colin Williams]

I'll try a set out in practice & heat 1 and then pass them on.

I was thinking more like someone using them for the whole evening, in case you need to change setup at all to get the best out of them.

Colin

[Dave I]

The whole evening is the best option I would think. Gives people a true feeling for the tyres, rather than being not too sure on the effect.

[paul.upton]

how did the tyres work then?

[Colin Williams]

Erm, I left them at home.......:o

[gatesy]

I remember when me and paul wanted to run slicks back in the day.... :rolleyes:

You were all dead set against them back then!!

[oliverro]

Hi Stuart,
Latest batch of dragons seem very fragile so looking for a way to ease the cost burden of a bust side wall every week!
Rob

[Dave I]

I remember when me and paul wanted to run slicks back in the day.... :rolleyes:

You were all dead set against them back then!!

And your point is..............

Like Rob said we have been having problems with Dragons splitting. Hence we have decided to POSSIBLY open the tyres up to an alternative.

[Dave Treacy]

Dave, once you've tried them, you won't race dragons again...

[gatesy]

And your point is..............

Like Rob said we have been having problems with Dragons splitting. Hence we have decided to POSSIBLY open the tyres up to an alternative.

All right chill out.

I was only pointing out how arsey you got before, which are seem to be getting now because I had a slight joke.

[Colin Williams]

All right chill out.

I was only pointing out how arsey you got before, which are seem to be getting now because I had a slight joke.

Nobodies getting arsey about anything - let's keep this calm please :cool:

Ta

[Colin Williams]

Dave, once you've tried them, you won't race dragons again...

Hmm, see what you mean - certainly improves handling and lap times.

Dave T, do you have any ruling on the type of additives which are allowed at MK?

Colin

[Elliott Harper]

Slicks were awesome on friday with addative :D

[Dave I]

I was impressed with the amount of grip they generated. However we have some concerns over the addative warnings. With as many youngsters racing do we really want them using this stuff?

[Colin Williams]

See the thread I started about additive:

http://www.rcracechat.com/vb/showthread.php?p=260687#post260687

[Sphillips1974]

Most of our young racers come with a parent or adult to help them so i cant see a huge problem with the additive, plus there are worse things in the pits (12v batt, chargers, super glue ect ) :confused:

Simon

[Colin Williams]

Might be worth trying baby wipes and tyre warmers just to see the difference?

[Dave I]

Problem with that is how many people have tyre warmers? Can we introduce a new tyre that only works if people go and spend £XX on tyre warmers?

Addative used responsibly, and under supervision if its a junior may be the better way to go. After all the whole point is to give an alternative that can run along side dragons, the only way I can see this happening is with addative.

[Colin Williams]

I was thinking that tyre warmers might be a suitable alternative choice (as I've got a set :rolleyes: ) to additive.

The baby wipes were a second posibility, I didn't mean with tyre warmers! Rob do you fancy trying wipes this Friday to see how they go?

Colin

[Colin Williams]

If we do go ahead and change to the 24's as a new control tyre alongside Dragons, I've got us a discount on buying 10 sets of tyres (or more). We can then pass this saving onto Club members, so don't rush out buy any yet!

[oliverro]

I'll give it a go Colin. Could be a cheaper option - especially for those of us with babies!

[gatesy]

I'll give it a go Colin. Could be a cheaper option - especially for those of us with babies!

Apparently used ones are faster ;)

[Colin Williams]

Any more thoughts after Friday's testing?

Colin

[oliverro]

Colin
Dave and I seemed to agree that a "wiped" slick is about the same in performance terms as a dragon. This would give people a choice of tyre and means the nastiest substance around the pits is a (preferable unused) babywipe!

The wiped tyre didn't have the immediate super grip of a additived slick but nor did it have the cruel understeer for the first 3 laps of an untreated slick.

Dan had a good point after he tested additive in the 2nd final - "so much grip it is almost boring". Nathan seemed to concur as he "couldn't get the back end out".

I think we may have found a reasonably cost effective compromise.

[Sphillips1974]

Hello Boys
Will we be given the choice of using additived or baby wipes? if not which wipes are the best? at home i have the choice of 3 types!! More decisions to be made:D will it be possible to try the new tyres on fri?
Simon

[Dave I]

The 'wiped' tyres were OK. Not the 'on rails' feeling I had with the additive tyres, but usable.

Performance wise I would say they were the same as Dragons, with a lap needed to get them upto temp, as you do with Dragons.

I would like the extra grip additive gives, but the baby wipes would give a pretty even playing ground along side carpet dragons.

I guess a ballot is the only way to go with this.

[Sphillips1974]

Yes I think a ballot will be the way to go but me and Kev would like to try the new tyres with additive just to see what they are like?

[Colin Williams]

I not sure whether we need a ballot, as I'm not sure everyone would be voting for the right/same reasons.

OK - so here's the facts as I see them:


we looked at slicks because we were having damage trouble with the dragons.

slicks without treatment are a step backwards in terms of grip

slicks with additive are great, and improve laptimes

slicks with babywipes are as good as dragons

Then there are opinions that I have either heard, or hold myself:

additive gives too much grip leading to boring racing (at the top end);
additive is potentially hazardous;
there is little enough time between rounds as it is, so applying additive just ups the pressure, especially if you have broken your car in the last run;
everyone is faster, so overall it won't change the rank order of the Club if we use additive;
additive increases racing costs;
dragons are OK now, the problem batch is past;

I'm then guessing that the group who will feel the benefit of additive the most are the "middle" group of drivers, who will feel the increased grip gives more control - however it won't help us catch John, Dan, etc. if they are knocking 1/2 a second off each lap as well!


OK - feel free to add your thought to the above!!

Colin

[Colin Williams]

Yes I think a ballot will be the way to go but me and Kev would like to try the new tyres with additive just to see what they are like?

There are two sets of slicks floating around, so you are welcome to try them on Friday - if you can prise them off Rob and Dave!

PS - I'll be going back to my Dragons again for the time being until we come to a decision!

Colin

[Dave I]

The obvious answer is Slicks with baby wipes only. That gives a realtively level playing field with the Dragons.

I guess thats what gets my vote anyway.

Would we allow Tyre-Warmers?

[Sphillips1974]

The way I see it is im never going to catch the likes of john / dan ect but that bit more grip is all ways nice!! If we are going to allow tyre warmers and wipes then additive should be allowed as well, for those that want to use it:confused: we hope to try the tyres on friday and will let you know what we think as middle men!!:p

[Dave I]

If we were to allow additive, then everyone would be using it, simple. I think I would rather have a level paying field, where people can choose to run either Dragons or Slicks. The advantage slicks with Aditive have over Dragons is too much to ignore.

[Colin Williams]

I tend to agree with Dave, if we allow it everyone will use it.

If what we want is pure grip, then the answer is 1/12 scale and foam tyres or simply foams on the TC's. I don't think this is the way we should go as a Club.

So far, the approach has been to create close racing without too many rules, or costs. Stock motors and Dragons have achieved this, and while we could go with slicks and additive, I feel on this one that everyone at the Club would need to agree to it, as it impacts on everyone and isn't strictly necessary.

IMO, tyre warmers should only be allowed if we allow additives.

Keep it simple is best I think here.

Hmm, wonder what dragons and baby wipes is like.......

[Sphillips1974]

sounds fair that we should use dragons or slicks with baby wipes if they are about the same who needs more grip!! keep it fair:D

[Colin Williams]

sounds fair that we should use dragons or slicks with baby wipes if they are about the same who needs more grip!! keep it fair:D

In theory, we can all get the same grip if the set-up's right ;)

Colin

[paul.upton]

Additive is definatly the way that you need to go, with regards to tyre warmers, have you really got time to heat them up in between rounds? you need a good 15-20 mins to get the heat deep into the tyre.

Where as additive you could put it on 5 mins before your race and notice a grip difference straight away!

Long shot but if i get my radio (yep still waiting), then i will come to the club on friday.

Paul

[Colin Williams]

OK,

after a few weeks of testing, we have decided NOT to allow additive at the Club, but we will allow LRP VTEC 24r pre-glued tyres and baby wipes as an alternative to Carpet Dragons (either can be run).

The Club will be offering all Club Members a significantly reduced price for these new tyres if you want to make the change - see the Club website for more details

http://www.ketteringmcc.co.uk/

Colin

[paul.upton]

Colin please could you elabirate on why you decided NOT to allow additive with the tyres, personally i have been using additive for 5-6 years and have never become ill from using it, also in the 14 years i have been racing i have never heard of any health issues with using it.

I hate to say it but i would not want to run these tyres without additive, from a racers point of view i would always want my car to have the most grip that it could have to make it is as fast as it can, not using additve isnt going to allow me to do this.

Yes everybody is in the same boat, but from a racers point of view i feel this was the wrong decision to make.

Paul

[Colin Williams]

Hi Paul,

more than happy to talk to you about this in more detail if you want to pop along to the Club one Friday.

Sorry if you don't agree with the decision.

Colin

[paul.upton]

Unfortunatly i have other commitments this friday night, but will try and pop down in a few weeks

Paul

[oliverro]

Others things aside (wheels coming loose, losing about 6 teeth off front drive belt) the grip using un-additived slicks on Friday seemed pretty good to me. Running the one-way seemed to help alleviate the understeer I'd experienced before. Now I just need to sort out a new set up.
Admittedly it could be that the club slicks I was running benefitted from having had lots of additive from previous weeks but they seemed fine to me even without baby wipes. Interested to hear Dave's POV after Peterborough using the same set.

[fastfilli]

I too raced the club tyres last friday it did seem hard work at the start of the race but they do warm up.I think i still have more to get out of the set up though!!! you could try much softer springs all round like me it makes it a hell of a lot better and quit a lot of droop ? If we use no addative the dragons are definatly faster but as peoples tyres wear out i think there will be a gentlemans agreement that the top drivers will run the new tyres. Also i think a bit of sliding adds to the skill and fun:D

[Colin Williams]

The new tyres have arrived, so I now have 9 full sets up for grabs (I've already taken one for me!) at just £17 a set of 4 wheels/tyres. This price is only open to Club Members, as it is a significant reduction from the £25 RRP :D

[Sphillips1974]

Save a set for both me and Kev!! :D will pay on friday thanks.

Si