27 Turn 'Stock' Class?

[wafu810]

Very unusual for me to do this, but here goes:-

Just to say this is a good example of how info on chat rooms can get out of control, Tim's got slightly the wrong end of the stick (And i'm not surprised reading some of the stuff in the TC section!) so reads his question and my answer before commentating - or better still asking a question?

Jim Spencer

Back to Tim:-



As a member of a rural BRCA affiliated club I (and most of our members) were shocked and surprised to learn that the BRCA had got rid of the stock class, and outlawed 1 way diffs.
Maybe we are uninformed and did not read all the information that may or may not have been distributed but if you would indulge us and answer a couple of questions then the 'grass roots' club members may understand what's going on.
1) Why? What's wrong with 'stocks' the most popular class in our area, with the cheapest motors. We can all see that in formula one engine sizes are regulated to keep speeds down for safety, but there's no one in our cars more speed is good, the handling has to also be good to balance the power.

2)Where does that leave the BRCA in comparison with the European and US class rules? Have we fallen into line with their changes or are we the sole implementees of this policy forcing our top drivers to run two different setups, the UK and rest of the world version.

3)Rumour has it that it is a result of some sort of big argument between Trinity & the BRCA - say it ain't so.

4)All manufacturers make chassis and battery restraint sytems for 6 cell arraingements, were they consulted on these changes? Are they going to react to them?

5)You may say that this doesn't effect club racing, and it won't immediately, but just as F1 technology filters down to road cars changes like this mean that it will knock on to clubs in the future. The lead from yourselves indicates to all manufaturers, distributors, retailers and racers that stock in UK now has no ultimate championship. If you are the best driver in stock at club, or area level you now have no opportunity to race against a national division. So it will affect all clubs in some way.

Thanks for taking the time to read these points, hopefully 'stock' will not turn into an illegal underground movement. "The first rule of stock club is you never talk about stock club".
If these measures bring us into line with Europe & USA great, but if like driving on the left they put us out of sinc with the racing fraternity why do it? Change is good as long as it is for a valid reason.

[MikeS]

I am afraid you were (very) badly informed, 27T is still here and no on the other! In fact one member of the committee argued quite forcefully, against the floor, to keep 27T!

[Steve Cann]

reply already made

[Jim Spencer]

:)
As a member of a rural BRCA affiliated club I (and most of our members) were shocked and surprised to learn that the BRCA had got rid of the stock class, and outlawed 1 way diffs.
Maybe we are uninformed and did not read all the information that may or may not have been distributed but if you would indulge us and answer a couple of questions then the 'grass roots' club members may understand what's going on.
1) Why? What's wrong with 'stocks' the most popular class in our area, with the cheapest motors. We can all see that in formula one engine sizes are regulated to keep speeds down for safety, but there's no one in our cars more speed is good, the handling has to also be good to balance the power.

2)Where does that leave the BRCA in comparison with the European and US class rules? Have we fallen into line with their changes or are we the sole implementees of this policy forcing our top drivers to run two different setups, the UK and rest of the world version.

3)Rumour has it that it is a result of some sort of big argument between Trinity & the BRCA - say it ain't so.

4)All manufacturers make chassis and battery restraint sytems for 6 cell arraingements, were they consulted on these changes? Are they going to react to them?

5)You may say that this doesn't effect club racing, and it won't immediately, but just as F1 technology filters down to road cars changes like this mean that it will knock on to clubs in the future. The lead from yourselves indicates to all manufaturers, distributors, retailers and racers that stock in UK now has no ultimate championship. If you are the best driver in stock at club, or area level you now have no opportunity to race against a national division. So it will affect all clubs in some way.

Thanks for taking the time to read these points, hopefully 'stock' will not turn into an illegal underground movement. "The first rule of stock club is you never talk about stock club".
If these measures bring us into line with Europe & USA great, but if like driving on the left they put us out of sinc with the racing fraternity why do it? Change is good as long as it is for a valid reason.

Sorry but you've posted this in totally the wrong area, most of this should be in 1/10 Touring car, but I'll have a bash :)


'The BRCA' has done none of the things you mention above.

'The 1/10 Touring car national series' had a Proposal not to run a class for 27t in 2007, which failed, and therefore it's still a national class to my knowledge.
Even if this had passed - which it didn't - then that would in no way effect their use at clubs, most of the national classes have rules that you wouldn't impliment for club racing.

Not much idea about 1 way diffs i'm afraid (I race 1/12th), but don't think they were outlawed - for Nationals - either, i'm sure the Touring Car boys can confirm this.

As an aside the EFRA rules (Europe) are modified only - no 'stock' class rules exist.
(This is a classic example of rules for competetions not effecting clubs - most of the European countries have stock racing somewhere, but the EFRA meetings simply don't cater for them)

There is an issue with some motors not conforming to the Rules, (ROAR (US)Rules are the same as BRCA) once it gest fixed in the states it will automatically fix itself here.

Re The manufacturers being consulted, I assume you're refering to the EFRA decision to go to 5 cell modified? In which case the answer is yes as the EFRA meeting has maunufacturer input.
The BRCA represents the views of is members to EFRA, but has only 1 vote out of the 23 countries present (each country has a vote)

Which lead from yourselves are you on about here?
The BRCA is its membership, if the membership make a proposal and it passes then it will automatically get proposed to EFRA.
Here you have the opposite, the EFRA Executive and the DMC (Germany) made a proposal to go to 4 cell, your 1/10 rep (Roger Cosgrove) was instructed to defend the Uk position of 6 cell, however on the day an amendment was proposed (Czech rep?) to go to 5 cell.
The member countries voted and it passed.

So to summarise

Yes unfortunatly you're uninformed, and you certainly have the wrong end of the stick about how the sport is structured outside of the Uk and possibly internally too.

So i'll try and elaborate..

'The BRCA' is its membership.

All of its rules are democratically voted in at the AGM (380+ people attended this year) the rules are the wishes of the members who propose rules to and attend the AGM.

There are only 2 pages of rules that apply to all our racing.

These are the general rules on pages 12/13 of the 2006 handbook.

All the rules under the sections are for National competitions or other events that CHOOSE to adopt them, they're not in any way compulsory for club racing.

Every year at the BRCA AGM, the following happens:-

There are sectional meetings all morning where the people interested in each class of racing discuss and vote on what they want the rules to be for next season for that particular National Championship.

In the Afternoon the Main BRCA AGM takes place where anybdy can propose a change to the consitution or general rules, this year there were NO proposals.

The week after the BRCA AGM each section (that races internationally) sends 1 representative to the EFRA meeting, there they propose changes in accordance with the UK drivers wishes and argue against changes proposed by other countries that don't conform to our drivers wishes.
Sometimes we get our drivers way, sometimes we don't it depends on the views of the other 22 country reps present.

Lastly nope I'm not saying it won't effect club racing eventually - if Tamiya went 5 cell for example it would....
Currently it probably can do if you want it to, or won't if you don't, what i'm saying is that were not always in control of our ultimate destiny but we can decide what to do for ourselves today?

And there is NO proposal to remove stock from the EB lists, this wouldn't even happen if Touring Car decided not to run it as a National meeting class - which they haven't. :D

Hope this clarifies a bit, I know its a bit difficult to understand how the sport is structured unless you're more involved in it, can I suggest you ensure somebody from your club attends the AGM? They can always ask in person and have this sort of thing explained, if nothing else it saves loads of typing :'(

[rcflyers]

Is it true that certain Trinity stock motors used to be BRCA legal, then BRCA changed the specs making them now illegal?

[MikeS]

Oh dear, more misinformation..........you need to go back to your sources and question them, and possibly their motives!

[rcflyers]

Ok, which currently available Trinity Stock motors are currently BRCA legal?

CO27?
Monster?
P2K2?
X-Stock?
ROAR?

[pricey]

go onto the brca website and look under approved motor list you should find what you are looking for there.

[Rob Fitzgerald]

Hi rcflyers

Would you please put your real full name in your profile.

[Remo]

one thing though regarding Jim's comment:
"There is an issue with some motors not conforming to the Rules, (ROAR (US)Rules are the same as BRCA) once it gest fixed in the states it will automatically fix itself here."
From the ROAD website then the CO27 and the X-Stock are on their approved list: http://www.roarracing.com/approvals/smotor.php or am I not reading it right?

[wafu810]

Thanks for all your comments, the one way diff comment came from reading Circuit Chatter, latest issue. As 'Remo' says will the CO27 and X-stock find their way onto the approved list? They are both in plentiful supply in the UK but are not allowed at our area championship as it's run in accordance with BRCA rules.

[Jim Spencer]

Thanks for all your comments, the one way diff comment came from reading Circuit Chatter, latest issue. As 'Remo' says will the CO27 and X-stock find their way onto the approved list? They are both in plentiful supply in the UK but are not allowed at our area championship as it's run in accordance with BRCA rules.

Circuit Chatter contained the proposals, you could propose
"everybody must run Pink cars"
if you like, doesn't mean the rest of the AGM would agree with you and it wouldn't then become a rule..

The CO27 and the X-stock do not meet the construction criteria for a 27t stock motor unfortunatly, the EB list has alternatives available which do, I suggest you buy an alternative or elsewhere. Its unfortunate that due to some disparity between the rules in the UK and ROAR specs this hole has opened up, it's envisaged that discussions with ROAR will see it closed shortly.
however its nothing new there have pretty much always been motors available that don't meet the rules, just make sure you check the lists before you buy.

[Remo]

The shame of the whole deal is the disparity came from a newly introduced supplemental rule, one which would also fail all current Trinity stock motors like the P2K2, Monster and Roar motor if they were to be submitted again.

Many of these motors has been through my hands and I can definitely tell you their consruction and quality has improved over that of the Monster and Road, too bad unless you do Carpet Wars you wont get to appreciate them.

[Steve Cann]

Many of these motors has been through my hands and I can definitely tell you their consruction and quality has improved over that of the Monster and Road,




Bit of a sweeping statement Remo... Could you enlighten us further? Would've been difficult for them to have got worse... Sadly though Trinity/Epic choose not to make products that meet 'our' rules...

[rcflyers]

what is the new supplemental rule, remo?

[wafu810]

UK and ROAR specs this hole has opened up, it's envisaged that discussions with ROAR will see it closed shortly.
however its nothing new there have pretty much always been motors available that don't meet the rules, just make sure you check the lists before you buy

These are not only the best motors for sale but the most prevelant on the market. The Trinity Cobalt is the next generation of 'Monster' Stock which is by far the most common stock motor used in the Uk.

What is all this stuff about the P2K2 and others failing this 'suplemental rule' if re-submitted? Surely a company of the stature of Trinity wouldn't build a motor that ROAR/BRCA would rule illegal?

Are we going to fall in line with ROAR and allow Cobalts or will they never be allowed in the UK?

[Mike Haswell]

1. The reason the original proposer gave to 'Remove the 27T Stock class from the BRCA calendar for 2007' but keep the rules in the BRCA Handbook so other series, i.e. BTCC, TORC, STCC, etc., may run this class. Was
The idea being that this class may go back to its original intention of a beginners - clubman’s class, thereby removing top drivers from participating in this class.


2. Across the World you now have 4-cell (Japan), 5-cell (Europe) and 6-cell (USA).

3.
There is an issue with some motors not conforming to the Rules, (ROAR (US)Rules are the same as BRCA) once it gets fixed in the states it will automatically fix itself here..
BRCA and ROAR rules are not quite the same.
ROAR has just announced that they are going to allow Hemi (Sagami) style winding in 19 turn, so there is some progress being made. Once they add in the other parts of the BRCA rules then the issues will be resolved.

4. As ROAR rules are written at the present it is highly unlikely that any motor could actually meet them. The BRCA has introduced tolerances into their rules to ensure that the manufacturers have some room to work within (ROAR does not have these). We also introduced a minimum web width (from 01.01.06) to go with the existing minimum stack length and dropped the old requirement of a minimum of 1626mm of wire per pole (the minimum web x stack = minimum wire length and being easier to manufacture/control).

5. The overall quality control of all the latest Epic stock motors, including the Monster, has improved but the wire tends to be wound a bit more loosely. It is a pity about the lack of supply - a number of the US tuners couldn't supply you with CO27 or an X-stock, never mind a Monster, if even they wished as they have no motors to sell!

[Mike Haswell]

Surely a company of the stature of Trinity wouldn't build a motor that ROAR/BRCA would rule illegal?


Really?!
Lets just say they have form.

[Remo]

rcflyer:
From 1/1/06:
Rule 7.8 part (b) "Motors approved prior to 01.01.06 that have a minimum stack web width of less than 3.5mm (with insulation removed) will have a minimum of 1626mm of wire per pole."

Think the P2K2 would probably also fail the min stack length today but i leave that to the experts as that motor is an old hat.

As from the link I posted the motors in question appears to be ROAR legal.

Steve,
Not at all. I have been through quite a few of them (close to couple of hundred)... the earlier motos have more obvious qc issues ranging from oval commutators, comm segments sunk in or lose or coming adrift. Lose windings. Windings touching end bell. The worse is probably the tabs clamping the wire not having staked properly with sometimes one pole not conducting at all.

The batch of CO27 I have been through had far better windings, staking and gerenally a better built motor. When tuning they are more consistant and easier to get good results from them too. It is hard push to get one that wont sing after blue-prinitng, not so with the Monster and the Roars.

As to rules, there are good ones and there are not so good ones IMHO.

[chalenger]

hello im new to this thread but have read as much of it as possible.

i would like to ask the following:
are any of these motors NOT sutable for 1:10 carpet racing using stock 27turn, 14 degree timing?
-G603L Fantom P2K2 motor
-XTRI12002 Trinity stock pro motor
-XRC2121 P2K2 Pro stock motor
-XRC2141 Monster Horsepower Pro stock motor

I am wanting to use the monster horsepower motor but these are some of my other options.

[Remo]

Best to see what others are using on the track you want to race at... as you can get gearing advice from fellow racers too.

For carpet racing most I know use the Monster or the Roar. I think the Monster is easier to gear it correctly.

If you track allows it then you can try also the CO27, from whatI have heard worked really well indoors.

[Remo]

Sorry forgot to mention the CO27 is not allowed in BRCA events... not sure if your indoor venue runs to full BCA rules. If so the rule out the CO27.

[HBRULEZ]

Ok brushless what is stock the 13.5 or 15.5? Think about going to this to stop this motor war. And is the 10.5 brushless a 19t?

[Mike Haswell]

Not a sintered 13.5 for Stock - more powerful than a 27 Brushed.
Roar has decided that a 17.5 is the ticket for them in Stock and 13.5 in Super Stock.
Touring Cars in the BRCA have 10.5 in Pro-Stock (19t/Super-Stock) this year.

[HBRULEZ]

If 17.5 is now ruffly a stock I'm betting lots of people who should be faster then me, with a co27. HAPPY DAYS!:cool:(there using the 13.5)

[Omegabri]

I've still never raced yet, or found a club........What does the Tamiya Sport Tuned RS540 come under ????
Is that a 21/23 turn motor ?

:confused::confused::)

[Jim Spencer]

I've still never raced yet, or found a club........What does the Tamiya Sport Tuned RS540 come under ????
Is that a 21/23 turn motor ?
:confused::confused::)

Hi

Ok first find your club - you have quite a choice in Cheshire - which bit of it do you live in?

[Omegabri]

Widnes.......near the field side next to Warrington (for now !!), but thinking of Comberbach, nr. Acton Bridge (Northwich way....)

[HBRULEZ]

If you put a V2 endbell on a stock motor, whould it be illegal to race it? (that is with a brushing not bearing in the endbell) If so, why as 19t motors can run these?

[Mike Haswell]

If you put a V2 endbell on a stock motor, whould it be illegal to race it? (that is with a brushing not bearing in the endbell) If so, why as 19t motors can run these?

If you are just running at club level and they were happy with you running it like that then no problem. The V2 endbell would not fit any of the Epic/Trinity motors as they do not have a round can. It would only fit a TOP (Orion/Peak) based motor as the tab to 'lock' it at 24 degrees is designed to fit that motor.

But for BRCA it would not be permitted:-
a. The swapping of components between approved motors (a.k.a. hybrids) is not allowed (see rule 4.5 on page 18 on 2009 handbook).
b. As the motor would not be as homologated.
c. The motor would not be available for retail purchase (i.e. commercially available).

Most series who allow other 27 turn stock motors do have the commercially available rule as a provisio.

Certain 19T motors ran run the V2 endbell as that is what they were homologated with.

[HBRULEZ]

Thanks Mike. I run Trinity stock motors, so I guess I won't be trying it.:( Would I have seen any difference in the motor if I'd tried it? ie more RPM

[part-time racer]

No because it wont fit.

[HBRULEZ]

No because it wont fit.

On about trying it on a peak motor, what should fit.

Beside if it don't fit, I'll see a big differences. (no rpm, etc.)

[Luke Hobson]

im pretty sure that orion did a conversion endbell for epic based (flat can) styled motors.

orion web site should give more info....