'Basil Brushless'

[Chrislong]

Have many people had a go/own/use a brushless motor?

How good are they for competitive use?

Once they take off (which I predict they will), will they have a separate class from the modifieds?

Im talking in general - all classes of electric racing.

Chris

[rice98w]

i think what will most likely happen is that an "open" class would be developed, where brushless motors would be allowed.

i would like to try one....if anyone has a spare!!! lol ;D

matt rice

[B_Final_Bob]

If you look in the latest RRCI you'll notice that there is a class for them in the CML Carpet Masters this winter and I think they are allowed next year in RRCI off series.

[Chrislong]

So are there many about? are they reliable? ???

[B_Final_Bob]

There aren't many where I am (North East) but apparently they are quite popular.

When the BRCA gives them a class to race in and the price goes down a bit I might consider getting one. It's just the initial cost that puts me off.

[lewist]

i am currently saving up my pennys to get one!! although the inital cost if a little high.. you get a motor and speedo for like 200 pounds give or take!! depending on a system, however if you were to go and buy a good motor and speedo, you would be looking at over 100 pounds, then there is all that motor skimming, and brushes and stuff.. i love the idea of a brushless system!!

going to run one in my monster truck and my 1/5th bike

[marcoski]

Well my KO VFS2000 and programmer was nigh on £200, the motor was £55 and the lathe was £200, so basil brushless looks quite good value in this light.

[rice98w]

are any brushless motors rated for 4 cells? i wanna 12th brushless!!!!! lol 8) ;D

i could run a normal setup in my race car, and slam the brushless in my spare car, so i can see fpr myself what its like. what about the novak?

matt rice

[B_Final_Bob]

I understand the point about how it's cheaper in the long run, but persuading my Dad to splash out the £200 or so needed to buy one, when he'll just say, well you have good motors and speedos already isn't going to get me one.

I don't think enough manafacturers make motors and speedos yet, I think Team Orion, Trinity and Reedy need to make some motors and LRP need to make a speedo, because of sponsors the top drivers won't be able to run in the brushless class. When people can clearly see that this is the next thing to happen, people will give up with brushed motors and then go brushless...

[marcoski]

Yes Liam, I hear what you say, but if you chose to go brushless, you could sell your speedo, motors and lathe ect, and probably raise enough cash to buy basil! I know you are going to say "but I cant use it at Nats", but as a humble club racer, I am very tempted to go down this road...

[Craig]

Just one question. After we have paid the £200 for the motor and the speedo is that it? Or will we find another thing to spend our money on? Will there be a way to keep your motor in top condition. Also how long does the motor last. When that one goes pop will we have to spend £200 to buy it all over agian?

[B_Final_Bob]

I not a fully fledged national racer (yet!!) as I only do 12th nats in the winter and the odd TC nat. I aren't really a big fan of the atmosphere at TC nats- too serious for my liking, well compared to 12th anyway!

From what you said about club racing, it can be the cost that puts people off. If I was on a tight budget (which I am sort of) I would rather buy a stock motor for £27 than a full brushless system for £200. Because I already have a speedo, then it makes sense at the moment for me to buy a normal motor, but when it comes to buying a new speedo, I will seriously think of buying a brushless system.

[marcoski]

The only thing that can fail in the motor itself, is the bearings. Not expensive to replace those. I accept that if you accidentaly plug up the controller the wrong way, that would be unfortunate, but you would only need to replace the controller, not the whole thing.
The controller should be as rugged as any other high end speedo, probably best not to get it wet though.

Re Liam, I race at one of the few modified only clubs left! So I have loads of cash invested in the gear that goes with it. I think I will be getting basil power sooner than later....

[Craig]

Would all the motors be the same or will we have motors with different winds. Also how would we police them? Make them all equal. But will the motor it self ever pack up?

[rice98w]

when there are enough systems around, will different manufacturers systems parts be interchangable? eg lrp make a brushless system, reedy make one, could you use the reedy speedo and the lrp motor or are there many ways of programming them?

also, if the components were interchanable, what if an advantage could be gained from mixing and matching? eg reedy controller is pants, but the motor is excellent, and lrp's motor is pants but they're controller is good, would that be feesable?

matt rice

[B_Final_Bob]

I think they will have to be interchangeable for sponsorship deals. Like Jukka Steenari would have to use Orion motor and novak speedo, because of his contract with orion/novak, same for Spashett, he would have to use Trinity motor/LRP speedo.

[rice98w]

think of the cost! :- :o

matt rice

[marcoski]

Policing them is probably the biggest issue for the BRCA. At club level, no, at OUR club, we only race modifieds, so someone with a brushless would not be an issue.

The power input to the motor (what equivelent wind it feels like) is determined by the controller. If they become acceptable, I would suggest that the manufactures could agree to a common "national race" profile, that could be selected for Nats, but of course there would be other profiles for greedy club users like me!

Because they are synchronous motors, the charactoristics like dr/dt (acceleration or effective torque) and max rpm can all be controlled to tight limits.

As for what can fail, I suppose it could burn out a winding if the controller serioulsy failed, but thats what guarantees are for......

Re Matt, think of the cost - compared to my current brushed system and support gear, about half the cost!

[B_Final_Bob]

I think that the profile should be the equivelent of a 10 turn motor. With the uber-cells of today I think this could be acceptable.

Anyway, i've found an Aveox 2 turn brushless motor capable of powering cars to over 100mph... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Nobody'll catch me now!! ;D ;D

[rice98w]

i think 10turn would be too slow.

aparently these brushless are more effiecient, and with 33's we would just be wasting power, lets live a little and go for an 8-turn limit! ;D ;D

we need a limit that would be just on the edge of the cells capabilities, that way if you drive badly (throttle jamm) you are penalised by dumping.

matt rice

[B_Final_Bob]

I think 8 turn might be too much for a beginner. Although very fun, I like the idea of a limit that pushes the cells so you have to be smooth to avoid dumping... but then we'll get 4000mah cells and go with my option - 2 turn brushless drag motors!!! YEAH tyre blowouts and electronic meltdowns!!!

[rice98w]

liam, i mean an 8 turn LIMIT, not a control class like say 27t motors. it would be too much for a beginner yes, but to change it is probably a 2 second job of turning a pot anti-clockwise so it isnt a major problem

matt rice

[B_Final_Bob]

But it's always the same, beginners car isn't fast enough to keep up with random stealth jet so they put in a motor too fast for them. Especially if you only have to turn a dial, the beginner might change it when Dad isn't looking.

[rice98w]

LOL!!! :D

will have to start impounding the cars from the kids, lol.

matt rice

[Doomanic]

thats what guarantees are for......

Hmmm, generally speaking they aren't worth the paper they're printed on, especially if you use them outside of the manufacturers recomendations.

For example, GP3300 cells specifically prohibit soldering directly to the cell.......

As far as esc warranties go, a certain blue manufacturer is far better than a certain orange one! I think it says somewhere warranty void if box seal is broken >:(

[rice98w]

i believe that blue manufacturer has a lfetime waranty. i think thats really good and shows they have confidence in there product.

what about the mixing and matching? what does everyone think of that?

matt rice

[marcoski]

Re Dom, you are probably right! I would fix my own anyway - lol

Re Matt, wouldn't achieve much - they are synchronous motors - how they behave is determined by the controller.

[B_Final_Bob]

Yes the LRP and Nosram speedo come with "limited lifetime warranty" which means that if you buy the product new you have a lifetime warranty, if you sell that product the warranty is finished.

I think eventually you will be able to buy LRP/Novak speedos seperate from the motor because of sponsorship etc...

[Craig]

thats what guarantees are for......

Well if you buy a blue esc and change the connectors then the warranty is void.

I think we will have to go to brushless. Its just waiting for the right time. I would go down the brushless route but not at the moment as were i race we can only use stocks. So is changing the speed of the motor like changing a dial? What is to stop someone going to be checked before they race then put the dial back when they come off the track.

[marcoski]

Indeed, I suppose they will have to come straight off the track to the scrutineers - go via your pit and your nicked! I reckon you would notice a faster car anyway, especially if the others were being good. Besides, I would like to think we are all sports(wo)men, and wouldn't do it.

[Craig]

Well i know i would not do it. I dont believe in cheating as then if i won and i was cheating it wernt really a win. If you understand that.

Perhaps the marshalls from the race before could pick up the cars and take it to scrutinering.

You wouldnt have to turn the power up that much just say an extra "turn" more. It wouldnt be to noticable could just come down to gearing. But it would give you the advantage coming out of corners.

How about 2 classes. 8 turn and maybe a 15 turn for those of us for arnt as speed crazy.

[Carver]

Just thinking though, surely the motor must wear out eventually and need changing. the 540 standard motors dont need skimming or brushing etc but i found that they lost their performance after a couple of months. What do you reckon? Will that happen to the brushless too?

[marcoski]

Doubtful, there is nothing to wear out, apart from the bearings. No other moving parts touch each other. Its a bit like comparing records to CDs, records wear because the stylus effectively machines the groove, CDs will last forever because nothing touches them while they are playing.

[Craig]

At a rough guess what would the rules be for a brushless class?

6-8 mins?
8-10 "turn" limit?

Anything else? Can you change the bearings in the motor?

[Carver]

Will they need cleaning out with motor spray etc then or can you just leave them?

[marcoski]

Cant tell you till I get mine, but what goes together must come apart.... Our drilling spindles (brushless technology, different application) have been running for 10 years now. They are on their third set of bearings, and spend most of the day at 60,000 rpm. They haven't lost their power yet....

Re Jonathan - as far as I am aware, they are sealed units - there is nowhere to spray the cleaner.

[Dave G]

the novak is a sealed can but the "endbell" is removable with 3 screws allowing you to strip the motor and clean the bearings should you need to.

dave

[redlinezak]

are these motors able to be programmed to run at a similar level to 27 turn and 19 turn stock classes as i would like to get one but race 19 turn at my local club so i would like this option if i could persuade them to allow me to race with it.

[university_dave]

So far as I am aware there are two approaches to brushless; sensorless and sensor-controlled. These are not interchangable, you cannot use a sensorless motor with a sensor ESC. I think the Novak system uses sensors, whereas Orion's doesn't (so Jukka is screwed there then...).

[B_Final_Bob]

what's best though? sensor-controlled or sensor-less?

[marcoski]

Sensor - better start up charactoristics, but once running, they are similar

[lewist]

it may be that in the future rather than having a control motor that is dished out, you get a control speedo!!! with a set program!!

from what i have seen on the internet (have done a little reaserch in the past) you get a speedo and motor combo that is the equivlant of XX turns. from what i have seen of these, they are not changable.. is this the case.. in which case you could control power my making sure people only had an unadjustable speedo in terms of power!?!

[Chrislong]

I heard that the reason why it has taken so long for this technology to reach our sport is that the basil brushlesses hasn't been able to handle the sudden hard braking then accelerating they are subject to in our racing cars and its taken a while to develop something to suit.

As 540 size brushless systems have been about ages now - but only for model planes and boats although they fit directly into our cars.

Don't know why, but this must have been fixed - or does this still cause a few reliability problems?

Chris

[Badger_Ben]

The magnet in the brushless motor is the part that rotates, do these motors get hot, guessing they must a little as a 100% efficient motor hasnt been done, will the magnets go off with age? I regulalry hear of people moaning about "soft" magnets in the normal brushed motors.

Are the sensored using star-delta start up the same as industrial motors 3 phase motors?

[marcoski]

No, in an industrial analogy, they are direct on line, but the frequency is ramped up from zero at start up. As they have a neo magnet core, rather than a squirrel cage, they behave like a stepper motor on steroids, rather than a pure induction motor. Provided they are run within their design parameters, they should have a similar life as a stepper motor, ie a long time.

[jimmy]

SCIENCE!!!! :o

[Toon]

Hi all.

I've got a Novak SuperSport brushless setup, which is in my Traxxas Rustler.

I know it's not a great race truck, but it's tough, and I only bash at the moment (never raced), and I might get a T4 when it eventually gets released.

Back to the Novak SS - It cost £250, which comes as a motor and controller set. It's limited to 6 or 7 cells. Performance is supposed to be equivalent to a 10 turn mod - never used a 10 turn myself, but it is noticably quicker than the 15x2 Trinity Titanite I had used before. I get about 10-12 minutes (bashing) runtime on Reedy X-Rated matched 6-cell 3000HV's. You gear it the same as a stock motor and go from there to suit, you don't need to use a smaller pinion straight away like if you were changing a stock for a mod motor.

It is a lot of money to shell out initially, but you need never worry about brushes or comm cuts again. The motor is sealed, and the only maintenance it should ever need is oiling the bearings occasionally. For bashing, and racing if your club allows it, it's hassle-free high performance. That's gotta be good for everyone... except companies like LRP, Trinity, Reedy, etc. who want every one to keep buying new brushes for their motors...

P.S. The Novak is a very *mild* brushless setup. There are insanely powerful brushless systems out there. Think of an Traxxas E-Maxx dual-motor 4WD electric monster truck. Think of dual brushless motors & controllers. Think of 10+ cells PER motor! Then you have a truck/missile that will do 50mph+, and enough torque to literally tear the gears, diffs & driveshafts into little pieces if you nail the throttle too hard! It sounds like overkill, but some mad guys out there are doing it.


Toon

[lewist]

ive have seen a chap on the internet who has done just that!!!! from what i have read its a total monster!!!!!!!!!

[redlinezak]

havnt got a link to that have you lewis?

[lewist]

not to hand no.. i just did a search for traxxas projects (ive got a stampede and i wanted to see what people did with them!!) this guy had two brushless motors and speedos running of 12 cells (i think) and said it would eat the tmaxx for breakfast!!

have a search of google!!

[Toon]

If you want to see it for yourself, go to the Traxxas forums, particularly the E-Maxx section. Plenty of info about brushless there.

I'm not sure if you are supposed to recommend other websites on this forum - if not, please delete this post, and sorry.


Toon

[Paul_L]

One solution could be to have a socket to insert set resistors (std fittings similar to lrp's program plugs) so that the BRCA/clubs could define a class limit for a particular class, equivalent to say 12/19/27 turn classes. If these were made out of say coloured plastic, a different colour for each class scruitineering would be easy.

Paul

[Toon]

The Novak SuperSport does have a 'sport' mode, in which the motor is electronically limited to 24,000 RPM.

The motor is actually rated at 5800 RPM/Volt, so at 7.2V that equals 41760 RPM (but less in use due to real-world inefficiency). But I think you'll all agree getting 40,000 RPM from your motor should be enough for plenty of ;D :o ;D


Toon

[glyn ward]

I heard that the reason why it has taken so long for this technology to reach our sport is that the basil brushlesses hasn't been able to handle the sudden hard braking then accelerating they are subject to in our racing cars and its taken a while to develop something to suit.


Chris



you have hit nail on head here they do not like braking temp rise is very high. most controlers have temp control to stop damage. our magnets go soft at high temp but come back when cooled down.neo magnets do not like high temps or high freq if they reach one or both the magnetic feild just goes then its expensive.

[Chrislong]

Hi Glyn!
So are the manufacturers developing the systems further so this does not become an issue?

Thanks
Chris

[Snails_Pace]

If brushless were introduced, the need to restrict the motors to stock, super stock and modified would not be an issue after all I thought that the point was to create several classes of racing to suit varying budgets.

If you had to go out and buy the exactly the same equipment only have its performance curbed would this not negate the need for separate classes?

[Jonny_H]

If brushless were introduced, the need to restrict the motors to stock, super stock and modified would not be an issue after all I thought that the point was to create several classes of racing to suit varying budgets.

If you had to go out and buy the exactly the same equipment only have its performance curbed would this not negate the need for separate classes?



The motor/controller system would be the same, but limiting the performance would reduce the dependency on decent cells so there would still be some benefit...

[fzr phil]

well i have been looking at them for some time i sure like the idea of them as i don't really do motor maintainance. in a moment of madness...... I GOT ONE!

so far i have only tried it in my V12 Banger a few laps round an oval at basildon and outside a couple of times.The power was pretty awesome to say the least! Outside- luckily i have extensive adjustment of my radio to curb the front side atv (futaba 3PJ) to stop the wheels spinning and let the kids have a go. Inside -good job there are barriers on the oval!
i am not quite a regular club driver as i have too many other commitments :'( but i would love to race more often and hopefully this will give me a greater incentive.

regards to all

Phil Martin

[burgie]

chris - speak to John O'Connor - he cooked his novak brushess at woodvale this year. #it was bloody fast before it went up in smoke though . . . .the speedo was set as a 12 double in his TC3 off roader, and looked to be very quick more along the lines of what you would expect from a 10, I'd suggest

[Chrislong]

Hey Burgess!
Doh! I was there mate, remember? we tied our gezebo's together? And we all got burnt in the tropical heat :(

He has had it replaced now with no problems, don't think he knows why as there was no reason for it to go like it did. Be interesting to find out though!

Chris

[Jefke_bb]

hello hello!!!
I'm using many brushless motors for quite a long time and I can say they are VERY reliable!!!! no more changing brushes ,... the only thing you have to change every four months (depends on how much you drive) are the bearings...
I'm using a lehner basic 5300 and it works GREAT!!! but now there are basic XL's and the perform even better , a little bit longer than the original basics but the difference in power is HUGE!!!
also a hacker c40/7 which is the best motor I ever had, I'm using it in my tc3 but I can asure you I can't find pinions big enough for it.. with a 69 spur and a 33 pinion I can run easy 5 minutes in rumst in belgium which is a very big track!!! also a basic 3100 for the off roads, it's not THAT fast but here also the efficiency is enormous so you can use big pinions because of the power they give
anyway, it is VERY funny to use it in cars :-)
graupner has made new motors GM evo, they are called I believe and I've ordered a 9(windings)so we'll see..
also there is a new controller from schulze which is made for brushed motors AND brushless motors!!!!
unfortunately the price is rather high but it will go down within a few months I'm sure....
I hope you now know a bit more :-)
greetz!!!!
J'ke