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marcoski
15-11-2003, 08:31 PM
Just thought I would write a story on how the novak brushless system works.

Interestingly enough some of the control theories that I thought were in use are in fact not after I gave the unit a thourough going over with the oscilloscope as part of the research for this piece.

Its construction.

The motor comprises of a magnetic rotor surrounded by three stationary field coils. This is completely opposite to brushed where the coils rotate with the armature and the magnets are stationary. The rotor itself is a neodymium magnet arranged to have six poles around the outer edge. The field coils are wound on shaped soft iron pole pieces securely mounted to the motors can. On the rear of the motor are three hall probes. These are special electronic sensors that pick up magnetic fields. They are fixed in such a way that they can see the 6 magnets of the rotor, and there is one for each field coil. They are also set in relation to each field coil to set the motor timing.

Commutation.

This is quite complex! The principle of the motor is that if you switch on each field coil one after another, you will create a magnetic field that will rotate around the can from coil 1 to coil 2 to coil 3 and back to coil 1 again, ad infinitum. The rotor, being a magnet, will follow this field round and rotate. However, that method is not very efficient, so the coils are driven both ways, first to attract a north pole on the rotor, then reversed to attract a south one. But it gets even worse than that!! As its a three wire system, the interactions between the three drives becomes quite complex, but suffice to say it generates a very efficient rotating field. The timing of this complex drive is determined by the signals from the hall probes, automatically selecting the next step in the firing sequence as each probe sees a new segment of the rotor.

So half of the speed controller is devoted to this automatic sequenced commutation system

The other half is a conventional speedo as we know it. It just varys the drive voltage to the autocommutation system and motor just like a brushed motor - the more volts you give it, the faster it will turn.

The maximum speed is not limited by setting a ceiling on the commutation frequency, as I initially thought, rather, just like a brushed motor, equilibrium is reached between back emf and coil drive. So it is true to say that higher voltage cells will give a slightly high maximum RPM.

Acceleration is only limited by the field coils ability to accept current, the more current that can be delivered to the coils, the faster it will accelerate. So again, higher voltage cells should allow for faster acceleration.

Braking - this works by shorting the coils out.The dynamo effect of the magnetic rotor will cause the rotors energy to be lost as heat in the shorted windings, and the motor will soon stop.

In unlimited mode, all the above is true, the motor will get everything the cells can deliver. But there is the stock motor mode as well.

Stock mode.

In stock mode there is a ceiling on the commutation frequency, the motor simply will not go faster than 24000 rpm. This limit is crystal controlled, it is very accurate and repeatable.

There is also a current limiter to limit the acceleration, the maximum field coil current is electronically controlled to limit how fast the motor accelerates. This is subject to a wider production spread, but then so are stock motors! I would say given the method used, it would be fairly accurate across a field of novaks.

In stock mode the quality of the cells is less important, as even poor cells will allow the electronic governors to work well within their limits.

The motor supplied has the following charactoristics:

Power 196 watts
Kv 5800rpm/volt
Kt 0.45 Inch-Ounce/Amp

The speedo is capable of driving a 225 watt motor, and has locked rotor detection to prevent damage by trying to turn a stalled motor (car against the barrier, say)

Craig
15-11-2003, 09:03 PM
Thanks Marcus very well written as usual.

But i thought a story was Once upon a Time...

LisaKeen
15-11-2003, 09:16 PM
Yes I agree, very interesting reeding, and very informative.

We bow to the Almighty Marcus. ;D

DA_cookie_monstA
15-11-2003, 09:25 PM
Reading that then, that basically, part of the speedo (the power side) is the same mostly to a normal speedo, with advancing technologies, there could be the possibility of a dual purpose speedo?

i.e. one that can control a brushed and brushless system, which would mean upgrading could be a gradual process....

marcoski
15-11-2003, 09:27 PM
Its possible, though unlikely as the brushless section does not require nearly as much current as a brushed motor would, because of the special magnet.

al
16-11-2003, 12:05 AM
i wish i could write all that with out becoming board after a couple of minutes ~~~~

al

;D

Craig
18-11-2003, 05:25 PM
I wish i could write that and know that much. Marcus we all look up to you....agian

bob burr
20-11-2003, 05:41 PM
You just fried my brainnnnnnnn, to much imput ???.
Seriously though i think the sensored system is the way to go, having spoke to a few people it seems that the unsensored systems dont like getting of the line, they tend to jump and jerk a bit till they get up speed.
We were told at the BRCA agm that the manufacturers were going to work to the same basic peramiters ?

marcoski
20-11-2003, 05:59 PM
I would certainly agree that it would be in the manufacturers best interests to at least agree to a standard such that the motors are interchangeable between the different systems, even if the software in each speedo is different. That way you could at least buy a better motor as the technology developes and plug it into your existing speedo, provided the new motor did not exceed the speedos ability to drive it, I can't see why this cannot be achieved.

I shall leave any discussion of the sensorless system to Mike, as it is his baby.

bob burr
20-11-2003, 06:14 PM
I think thats the basic idea Marcus, you have your Novac speedo and can run a trinity brushless motor with it, or the other way round.
I think if there is to be a long term future for brusless this is the way to go, say you have your Novac system fitted and LRP come up with a better speedo ? instead of having to change the whole system you just change the speedo, its what we all do now with ordinary motors and speedo's

MikeS
22-12-2003, 02:29 PM
Nice description of the Novak implimentation of their sensored system Marcus. I would add one thing though - the sensored systems will only drive other makes of motors providing the sensor specs, layout and control parameters are identical.

Whilst I would not suggest that you do it, a sensorless controller will drive both a sensored and a sensorless BL motor since it is working directly with the motor and sensing the motor own coils to analyse and control it. If you hook up sensored motor to a sensorless controller, you just ignore the sensor harness entirely.

BL motors can be built in many forms, expecially the coil construction, stator plate style and form, magnet layout, configuration and orientation, and this results in each "style" of motor having completely different electrical requirements and control charateristics. If the controller used does not handle these charateristics correctly the motor will run, but not to its full potential.

I am afraid that the assumption that we are going to have a range of motors and controllers that will be completely interchangeable is jumping the gun a little as this can only happen if the motor design is very strictly controlled and specified - i.e. near identical!

John Stones
22-12-2003, 11:44 PM
So... its an inside out motor??? my head hurts :'(

timmorley
12-01-2004, 06:42 PM
The other half is a conventional speedo as we know it. It just varys the drive voltage to the autocommutation system and motor just like a brushed motor - the more volts you give it, the faster it will turn.



Although rest of description good, this bit is incorrect. The frequency of the rotating field is varied. The faster the rotating field, the faster the rotor runs. If accelerating then the controller will run the field frequency slightly faster than the armature; so the armature is constantly playing catch-up. During this phase the magnetic field will be saturated and this is the point of most current draw.
In the industrial electronics world this is known as an inverter servo drive (closed loop)

marcoski
12-01-2004, 08:52 PM
I agree with that in a motor that does not have a permanent magnet rotor; you do have to accelerate a synchronous squirrrel cage motor at slip speed to get maximum acceleration, but with the novak BL technology, a better analogy would be a self indexing stepper motor, the hall probes triggering the next phase in the stepping cycle.

Doomanic
12-01-2004, 10:24 PM
synchronous squirrrel

Isn't that a cartoon super hero? ;D

And should there be 3 "R"s in there? ???

DA_cookie_monstA
12-01-2004, 10:27 PM
hmmm, the sounds you make when you put a load of r's together sounds like spinning transit wheels.... now, where have I heard that recently??? ;D;D;D;D

marcoski
13-01-2004, 10:45 AM
LOL two Rs would be enough ;D ;D

Remo
16-01-2004, 11:32 PM
Marcus

How do you gear your BL compared to a 12T?
I tested mine today and found it pants... even in no limit mode, it is on par with my 19T and no where near my 12x3 Fantom... the brakes were a bit better than my 19T but no where near the 12 either... I have stripped belts and pullies with the 12T but with the BL it didnt even skip ...

tried gearing it higher and lower but it withers go pleh or revs out... I read somewhere that there were some with speed issue but that was the 4800 series in the US and I got the 5800 series...

Let us know if you have a moment...
Cheers!

marcoski
17-01-2004, 10:21 AM
I use pretty tame gearing - its all I can handle - lol. The BL wont be as quick as your 12T motor, it might out accelerate it to start with, but ultimately wont be as fast in a straight line.
Ask Rob Fitzgerald how he gears his, he is a somewhat better driver than me!

bob burr
17-01-2004, 11:57 AM
Remo, Luke is on 34x69 in a TC3 and thats round Bedworth.

Remo
19-01-2004, 02:49 PM
WoW Bob.... sounds like hes gearing it like a stock at Bedworth... thats weird I have to try that sometimes... I raced it yesterday at local against 19t as a trial, geared it like a mod and it went like a 17T ish... so it was quick but have to see what it goes liek if I geared it like a stock... but last time I geared it 5.5 the speedo got really hot...

Hey Marcus, seeing BTCC allows BL this year maybe soon we can consider a BL motor section in RaceChat... what do you think?

bob burr
19-01-2004, 05:10 PM
Remo if you read the instuctions it says that if using the stock profile use the same gearing, but if using the modifed profile you will have to gear up (compared to a 12t) or it will be slow.
They do get hot but there is a thermal cutout if it get to hot, Luke has never had this hapen so dont think he can be madly overgeared.
I would say its more like a 13t motor and on a realy big track you would suffer from lack of top end.
Note if you do overgear you are not going to burn the com, ;D

Remo
19-01-2004, 05:32 PM
Currently I am running 6.6 just as I would with a 12x3. I will try something a tooth up or 2 then... it did felt like as it was reving out just a tad earlier that with my 12... cheers...

kufman
07-09-2004, 11:01 PM
Hello all,

just thought I would mention that Schulze does make a brushless sensorless controller that does run both brushless and brushed motors. It is called the U-force and it comes in a 50A and 75A model. I use it mostly on my lehner basic 4200 and aveox RC7 motors. It doesn't work worth a darn with a novak motor. Tried that. Just as a note. The novak ss5800 is about equivalent to other companies 4000 to 4300 rpm/V systems. My 4200 geared 75/28 in my TC3 will outrun my friends car running my novak geared at 88/20. This is under the gearing reccomendation for the novak system, but it keeps the controller under 170F. Anybody else have trouble keeping the novak controller cool?

know it all
10-10-2005, 02:49 PM
You just fried my brainnnnnnnn, to much imput ???.
Seriously though i think the sensored system is the way to go, having spoke to a few people it seems that the unsensored systems dont like getting of the line, they tend to jump and jerk a bit till they get up speed.
We were told at the BRCA agm that the manufacturers were going to work to the same basic peramiters ?

Hi,

I don't know who you have been talking to about Sensorless systems not getting off the line but mine certainly does!
I have an Mtroniks Genesis sport plus combo V1.07 which is the lower powered of their two systems and it is awesome!! It is easily faster than my previous Mtroniks and LRP brushed speedos and sets off from the line like a scolded cat!!! lol

rtsbasic
10-10-2005, 04:36 PM
Bit of an old thread here. I don't think the Mtroniks controllers were available back then, much less the version you use :) Most sensorless controllers have problems off the line, but newer ones like the Mtroniks, rev 3 and 4 of the U-Force and MGM's don't have much of a problem.

You can reproduce this with the Mtroniks by only using 4 cells and tall gearing though.

stumpiey
05-12-2009, 07:44 PM
hi, can someone help please.

if you advance a motor which way do you go with the gearing ? ie i run 5.17

Thanks