Ask Mark Burgess...

[MarkB]

Yes is back - new and improved "Ask Mark Burgess..." thread for all questions Mission and stock motor related.

Enjoy!

MarkB

[JAY BRINKLEY]

Does the Mission chassis need to be slighly thicker(carbon) as i`ve seen a few too many recently that have broke at the rear(all those holes),people are saying it should be 2mm or so thicker?.
I have yet to brake mine and i`ve had some heavy moments recently with race control(head on!OUCH!!)
and it still holds out strong,what are your veiws?....

[MarkB]

Well my original chassis is still going strong, despite being raced most weeks for a year and a half now! And I don't see or hear of too many breakages, around the rear holes or not.

Certainly if a new chassis was on the cards, it would be great to see a bit more material around those rear holes just in case.

Cheers
MarkB

[MattW]

Jay, Must admit i did destroy one at the end of last year around the rear blocks, but you could kind of see it coming. During the season it was wearing on the tarmac and the chassis was getting really thin. It was kind of finished off by off roading out of the chicane at Bedrock and then a real big impact finished it off at a club meeting. It's a difficult balencing effect as if you have any more material it may well scrape all of the time.

[MarkB]

Mark Burgess' top tip number 137 - when racing outdoor stick a layer of gaffer tape on the bottom of the chassis. Reduces wear over curbs and stops damage to the screw heads.

Cheers
MarkB

[mark Fuller]

hi mark
if only you were at tolworth my dad said it would have been good to see how mine was ging comeard to yours if you were their (i won one final and second in the other (stock)) and well done at the nationals.

i was woundering what is the differents in the stiff top deck and the normal one
thank you

mark fuller

[MarkB]

Thanks Mark,

Congrats on the STCC final win and second - that's some serious points towards the championship. I really liked the look of Tolworth, and as I assume it was dry would have enjoyed the challenge. However I've committed to the Nationals and wanted to win one this year, so job done already!

I will be doing at least two more STCC rounds (South Hants and WLRC).

The stiff top deck is made from thicker carbon, and less material vut out of the centre. Hence the car is more rigid...

Cheers
MarkB

[dhamblin]

Hi Mark!

Well done on your stock A final win at WLRC! :)

I managed to get those lower titanium pins shortened to go with the front roll centre mod. I used a hack saw and 4 needle files! It was worth it though as I qualified 4th overall last Sunday! :D

[MarkB]

Thanks - the run of victories had to end eventually, although I'm pleased with 2nd in the BTCC 19-turn A-final from 7th on the grid. Roll on Barham!

I know I recommend the roll centre mod a lot, but it really does improve the handling as you seem to have found out!

Cheers
MarkB

[Paul_U]

ive only put the mod at the backk at the moment, havent had chance to cut all the bits

ill try and do it for friday and let you know what difference it makes?

Paul

[Barry_Hughes]

ive only put the mod at the backk at the moment, havent had chance to cut all the bits

ill try and do it for friday and let you know what difference it makes?

Paul


The front makes the biggest difference put it one quick!

I found the rear at 2mm (kit) made the rear a bit too loose.
The front has given the car a bit more mid corner and exit steering, making it even quickr through the corners

[ninjagordy]

hi mark.......

i recently bought a mission s1 and i am well happy with it, but i need some setup advice......i was running an axis at our local club on a games hall with yellow mini pins with medium inserts and it went like it was on rails....it also goes like this outdoors without any adjustment as im running it in the scottish 19 class and it seems to go really well......i have tried to set the mission up as close to the axis as possible apart from a couple of hints i got from a shcumacher team driver at the first round of the scottish at stirling, the advise was moving the shocks out a hole further than the axis is set......the mission seems to be handling good at the minute but its just a wee bit tail happy and was wondering if you had any ideas that may make the difference....the car is on the blue springs with no spacers at the front and the back is spaced to stiffen it up as i found this helped quite a bit .....i hope you have some ideas as the good old crowd pleaser "sideways cornering" looks good but is not fast as im sure you know!!!

cheers mate

regards

gordon

[Barry_Hughes]

If by putting spacers on the back shocks you mean the external black ones, these will not stiffen the springs, it is common mistake, all the spacers do is alter the ride height, you cannot change the "stiffness of the spring".
You can by laying downing the shocks or standing them more upright alter the effect the suspension has by making it easier or harder for the wishbone to compress the complete suspension.

If you want more grip on the rer run it about 1mm lowe than the front or move the top mount of the rear shocks in a hole

[dhamblin]

I wonder.

If a spring is compressed it gets harder to compress it much further. I am trying to remember all that stuff about Hooks law and spring stiffness constant. ???

[Paul_U]

when cutting down the front steering blocks (where the front pivot pin goes into. where abouts do i need to cut. and do i need to cut down the pin aswell( i have kit ones)

cheers
Paul

[MarkB]

Gordon - tail happy on the way into the corner (off power) or on the way out (of power)? Harger springs on the front for the former, softer springs on the back for the latter. Or move the front hocks out a hole and rear shocks in a hole.

Barry is right, although take to extremes then spacing a spring out will make the shock too stiff. Spacers alter ride height, spring rates alter stiffness.

Paul - cut down the spair set of blocks were the back of the pin hole is. All you need to leave is the plastic around the three screw holes. The Roll Centre Mod kit pins will do fine - as they are not Titanium we have been cutting down the Titanium front pivot pins for extra strenght.

Cheers
MarkB

[Paul_U]

Mark,
i havent brought the roll centre kit i am just trying to "bodge" it myself.

would it be easier to buy the kit and save some time (and maybe mistakes)

Cheers
Paul

[MarkB]

YES!

MarkB

[Dave I]

Hi

What is the internal ratio for a mission? A freind runs this set-up
"As for gear ratios I run a Schumacher Mission and have a 89 spur gear, 22 pinion and a 17 tooth pulley. I don't know what roll out that equates to though"

Just trying to work it out for my car.

Many thanks

Dave

[jason]

The internal ratio is 1.8:1 with the 17t pulley and 2.12:1 with the 20t pulley.

Jason

[MarkB]

All - we're racing the BTCC at Stafford this weekend, then I'm off to Canada on holiday for a couple of weeks. Based on recent posts I'm confident "Ask Mark Burgess.." will be in safe hands with Jason and MattW. Mind you there is a hotel with internet access....

Enjoy the Reedy while I'm gone - what a track!

Cheers
MarkB

[Barry_Hughes]

The internal ratio is 1.8:1 with the 17t pulley and 2.12:1 with the 20t pulley.

Jason


Wrong way my friend internal ratioo with 20T pulley is 1.8:1 ------ 17T pulley is 2.12:1.

THe 17T pulley should give a bit extra punch out of the corners, while the 20T gives a much smoother power delivery.

All the team drivers I know except Matt Rowe run with the 20T pulley

[Chris Kerswell]

Why should the 17T pulley give more punch Barry?

[Barry_Hughes]

Thanks Chris!

as I understand it the 17T pulley is recommended for smaller tracks, speaking to Geoff Rowe, Matts dad, they had been running with the 17T while we (inc Mark B, Matt W & yourself) used the 20T, their impression was it got the car moving quicker out of the corners.

Perhaps someone with a technical knowledge can say whether this is correct.

When I used a BRM (Corally) stock ifound that with the 20T puleey I couldn't get the motor to work no matter what combination of spur/pinion I used despite having a mmpr from Glynn to work to.
In desperation put the 17T pulley on with the mmpr given by Glynn and it was fully on song.
Still don't quite understand that one!

[MattW]

There have been many theory's on this over time, and i'm not sure how much sense any of them really make. My personal reason for using 20 is that i believe this gives more tooth engagement and a larger bending radius for the belt. Also the layshaft will be spinning slower and so i suspect losses from the bearings would be lower. You would also have smaller pinions which would give lower rotating mass, although the pully has a higher rotating mass!!

That said i think the reason for more "punch" with the 17 is that the layshaft speed is higher.

Bottom line: When i have run the car with a 17 pully it does seem to accelerate quicker, but seems to max out early and has less top end even with the same overall ratio. Hence i run the 20.

[Chris Kerswell]

I run the 20T pulley because i cant be bothered to change to the 17T pulley as i cant notice any difference. I personally dont think that what MattW said makes much difference (although it is all technically correct). :)

[mark Fuller]

hi this question is to mark b but others can answer
1)what is a good overall ratio on a mission with a demon 19t at snetterton
2)what is the best insert to run at snetterton with the 28R (btcc control tyre) this is for the btcc this weekend

thank you


mark fuller

[jason]

Mark,

1 We ran 27:83 with 20 tooth pulley on Fantom 19s there testing a while back which seemed about right that is 5.53:1

Inserts depends on how hot it is but I expect it will be warm so would suggest Sorex A firm as a good place to start.

Jason

[dhamblin]

Hi guys,

I have got a new Reedy Krypton 12x2 to run in my Mission but I have no experience of gearing anything this powerful. I have read somewhere that it has to be geared as though it was a couple of winds lower than it is so say 10x2.
If it helps I race on a tight twisty track which normally has a long main straight and quite a few hairpins.
Any help would be appreciated. :)

Dan Hamblin

[mark Fuller]

Jason

my dad has got hpi yellow red dots is that ok the weather is suposed to be about 21'C


mark fuller

are you going to snetterton i was at the west london one and came 8th

[jason]

Mark,

I will be at Snetterton at the weekend Sat & Sun.
We have run yellow red dots there in the past, they work ok. If it is very hot thet might be a bit soft.

Jason

[Paul_U]

ill be at snetterton saturday and sunday too

the weather looks like it will be good, better not say much else or it will rain :-X

Paul

[MarkB]

Hi all - I'm back from holiday and ready to race!

As Jason says we've used HPI Yellow red dots in Sorex 28Rs before, and I really like the handling of them. Others are less convinced, and I suspect any firmer insert will work when it gets hot. A Sorex A or B firm for example...

Cheers
MarkB

[mark Fuller]

Mark this is your home track what do you think is an average ratio for a 19t on a mission around snetterton i have a demon it is an epic


Mark Fuller

[Ade]

Hi Mark

Being as no-one has asked any question for a while I thought I would pick your brain. What method do you use to clean your bearings? I have been looking for a vibrating bath (no giggleing at the back!) ;D ::)

But have been struggleing to find one.

So was just wondering whether you just soak or do anything else that might be worth knowing.

Thanks

Ade ;D

[prodriver]

Hi Ade, you can get the bearing blasters from Modeltech.

Ill let Mark answer the question as im intrested also how other drivers do this. ;D

Thanks

Ricky Copsey

Cya the weekend Mark!!

[Ade]

Hi Ricky

I been speaking to Mike about the vibrating bearing bath and there is a delay at the moment. But short of having one of those I was wondering how all the top guys do it. I'm in the STCC at MK this weekend and want to give myself every chance of not embarassing myself. :o ::)

Ade ;D

[prodriver]

I just wrote this whole message and it crashed on me. :-X Right the only other place I know stocks the bearing bath is Centre Point just ring around a few large model shops in the UK they should have them in.

Cleaning Bearings I normally blast the bearings with motor spray and then leave the bearings in soak for a few hours to release any dirt within the bearing. Once I am satisfied with the beraing I then re-oil lightley with ZX1.

Hope this helps it will be good to see what Mark also comes back with.

Good Luck the weekend the one trouble I had at round one of the Nationals was finding the speed hopefully this weekend I should be okay..

Cheers

Ricky Copsey

[Ade]

I must agree you Ricky that's exactly the way I usually do it aswell but if you look at my other post (quest for silence) Whenever I hear top drivers cars (Phil Degavino is the cause of all this, his car goes past so quietly you can only just hear the tyres against the surface! :o :o ??? )

It's a complete mystery to me! ??? I've got teflon washers in my motor I clean my bearings every week I have RW everything and alloy everything and yet it just won't play the game ??? :o

This bearing bath is my last hope.... If it doesn't work I think I'll just go mad!!

Ade ;D

[Luke Burley]

I think the way Ricky suggested is correct. Most of the noise you can hear on the track comes from the spur/pinion that would be the first place I would try to silence the car. Not sure you can really hear bearings, I have one very old car with rattly bearings and a new one with silent ones, both have reasonably new spur gears and sound the same.

Hope this helps,

Luke

[MarkB]

I would never disagree with Luke, and I'd agree the the "noise" is mostly spur and pinion. Get that meshed right and especially a 64dp set up and it will be much quieter. I don't tend to worry about it, as long as its going fast enough ;)

I use the bearing bath when things have got really bad. Say a wet meeting and dirty track, when a soak and vibrate in a bath of WD-40 will "fix" bearing that are udually good enough for the bin.

Usuall the bearing get blasted with motor cleaner, left on a rag to dry and lightly oiled using the ZX-1 that Schumacher sell. Seems to work fine.

Schumacher have just introduced a new bearing supplier and use blue plastic sheilds (I think as I haven't seen any yet). I am reliably informed these are more efficient, and the best news is they are cheaper. Mine are now in the post (part numbers haven't changed).

And it would be wrong of me not to apologise to those who gave me a hard time about the HPI Yellow Red dot inserts at an unusually hot Snetterton on Sunday. They worked in cooler temperatures earlier this year, and a few people who tried them had real problems running them. Sorry!

Cheers
MarkB

[MattW]

Mark, I think they are actually teflon seals - i'm sure that was what i was told. Anyway, i put them in my car for the Reedy and they seem very good. Oiled from new rather than that really thick grease that usually comes with bearings.

As for noise, some spur gears are naturally quieter than others, that's just the way it is, depends on the material and manufacturing process.

[Ade]

Well I'm running an RW spur gear with the matrix pinions from modeltech. Maybe i'm not meshing them properly ??? ??? But I'm pretty sure I am.

Anyway I think I'll just give up on this silence thing and concentrate on driving better :o ;D

Ade ;D

[mark barord]

A new question!
I am interested in playing around with shock oil and the number of holes open in the piston on my Mission. It handles very nicely around the corners but struggles over the bumps at Southend.
Would you agree that increasing the oil by 10 wt and opening one more hole will keep the piston speed about the same?
May be Mark Fuller or Mark Elms will give us their set up for Southend?
Many thanks
Mark

[university_dave]

Well I'm running an RW spur gear with the matrix pinions from modeltech. Maybe i'm not meshing them properly ??? ??? But I'm pretty sure I am.

Anyway I think I'll just give up on this silence thing and concentrate on driving better :o ;D

Ade ;D


Some people have commented to me that the Matrix plastic pinions are not perfect 48dp. Try using a normal pinion and see if that makes any difference.

[Ade]

Well I've only just moved to the matrix plastic pinions and they seem to be an improvement over the titanium ones I was using before ???

But then I could be wrong I'll have to do some more experimenting...

Ade ;D

[MattW]

.......and personally i find RW spurs have a bit of a high pitch whine at low revs........

Mark , Yes obviousely it can make a difference, as can the lower mounting point for the shock.

At the moment i am generally running 45wt oil with 2 hole pistons. Ran that at Bedworth and Halifax. Did move the lower mounting point in at theh Reedy and it seemed to help the car on the bumps round there.

[ninjagordy]

mark.......which side should the adjuster screw got in the sst axis 2 diffs......mine keep loosening off.........my losi diffs are set up with the screw to the left....does this sound o.k?

regards

gordy! ???

[jason]

Gordon,

It doesn't matter which side the screw is on. Have you replaces the white nylon nut as part of your rebuild? this is the most likely cause of the diff comming undone.

Jason

[ninjagordy]

no i didnt ......however......it makes a difference in the losi.......if you put them in the opposite way round they definately loosen off.....

i will try the nylon nuts.....

regards

gordy!

[MarkB]

And there was I thinking it needed to be on the side the instructions said - which was the "left" when looking from the rear!

Seriously no reason why they should be any particular side, and Jason's advice on diff rebuilds is sound (as ever ;))

Cheers
MarkB

[DA_cookie_monstA]

Hi Mark

Being as no-one has asked any question for a while I thought I would pick your brain. What method do you use to clean your bearings? I have been looking for a vibrating bath (no giggleing at the back!) ;D ::)

But have been struggleing to find one.

So was just wondering whether you just soak or do anything else that might be worth knowing.

Thanks

Ade ;D


Sorry for the late reply, I would NEVER recommend the use of an ultrasonic bearing bath (vibrating bath) the clean such small bearings, as it can just as easily vibrate the ball cages apart as well as get the dirt out.

I always found soaking the bearings in WD40 whiclst you strip that area and clean, once they had a good soak, give them a spin and flush them with WD40, once they sounds OK, flush them with Motor Spray. (all this done with shields off as well).

On the smaller bearings, I would then drop a little bit of thin oil in there, on the bigger bearings (like the diff), just a tiny bit of grease.

[Derek Newbould]

mark.......which side should the adjuster screw got in the sst axis 2 diffs......mine keep loosening off.........my losi diffs are set up with the screw to the left....does this sound o.k?

regards

gordy! ???

Motorhead.......... The head of the screw is on the motor side of the car. ;D

[NumanR]

Mark, I am going to WLRC to practice for the BTCC on the Saturday,(see you there Garry), and was wondering how you do your practice? Obviously with big6 you have to get the tyres warmed up but how long at a time do you practice before adjusting something? Oh by the way tyre additive has been thrown away!!!! Thats my excuse and I am sticking to it. Seeya, MG.

[jason]

A couple of laps should be enough to warm up the tyres. I you need to try alot of things limit each run to a couple of minutes. You will need to check laptimes with a stopwatch once you are close to the setup because sometimes changes can make the car feel safer and easier to drive but slower round the lap. The only way to be quick with a big6 is to set it up to oversteer a little with progressive breakaway.

In my experience testing at WLRC on a Sat is a bit of a waste of time though because the track is always so dirty there will be loads more grip on the Sunday and it makes set up work done on Saturday worthless.

Jason

[SchmackaDude]

Mark can you explain the benefits of having springs on thefront as listed below and what benefit having the shocks on the shock mounts locations have

At bedworth i ran blue front with 55wt oil inner hole 2
andn
red rear 55 wt middle hole

for final i changed rfrotn shock position to middle and the car felt so much better, its a good thing but would like to know why it does it


cheers

[NumanR]

thanks Jason, I want to try the different springs we talked about back to back to compare. Presumably this will cause understeer so how do I get the steering back?

[jason]

Mark,
You could take some castor off by putting some spacers under the rear pivot blocks of the front wishbones or add camber, I used to run as much as 5 degrees at some tracks. Also toe out on the front will make the steering more aggressive.
You could also put more adative on the fronts but this can make the car a little hard to for the first few laps

Jason

[jason]

Peter,

The more you lay down the shocks the softer the spring effect becomes and you develope more chassis roll mid corner and generate more grip through the camber change.

Upright shocks will give more initial response but less grip mid corner.

This makes much less difference than other set up changes like castor and camber so should be used for fine tuning rather than big changes.

PM me if you want a set up sheet I used to TQ at BTCC 19T. Mark also used this set up after a little persuading .

Jason

[MarkB]

Hi Mark - its only this year I've been keen enough to do much practice on Saturday's and I'll still rather race. Jason's advice is as ever sound - tracks can tend to be dirty on Saturday, and you'll be on the track with lots of the other classes. Change one thing at a time, use a stopwatch to time laps and personally I'd do four minute Big 6 runs to simulate a race - unless the set up was awful!

Reduce the castor - it will make a huge difference to Big 6 turn-in, especially with the rear anti-roll bar fitted.

Peter - Read the XXXmain chassis set up guide for everyhing you'll need to know about touring car tuning. They explain it far better than we can, and it simply works.

My experience is the "big" changes like castor are the ones to get right, then fine tune on spring rate and shock position. I thought I had a decent set up at Bedworth, until I fitted Jason's and went 6 seconds faster. So the tip is work with a "team mate" who has the same car, and listen to them :-[

Cheers
MarkB

[NumanR]

Mark its my team mate I have to beat!!!!!!!!!!!

[hennessy]

Mark ,

up until last year I always raced Schumachers ie SST, Axis, Axis2. However I got a Losi last year, but keep havig a nagging feeling I should have got a Mission. 3 questions

1: 5 good reasons why I should get one
2 s1 or Carbon. I race idoors but will do STcc in 04.
3: What improvements/hop ups are priority

Thanks

[MarkB]

Hi Mark G - I know the feeling ;)

Mark H - my opinion I'd say the following good things abotu a Mission :-

1. Efficient
2. Good basic set up
3. Reponds very well to tuning
4. Lots of set up details available/helpful team drivers 8)
5. Strong and reliable

Carbon - its much stiffer and lighter.

I've previously listed a to five improvements, and currently thse would be :-

1. The RW diff pullyes
2. Grey belts for stock racing
3. Stiff carbon top deck
4. Purple alloy layshaft mounts
5. Spring tuning set

I would also add the MIP drive shafts and "roll centre" kit. The cheapest upgrades would have to be kick-klips for castor adjustment, and the new lower priced teflon sealed bearing.

Cheers
MarkB

[KRob]

Hi Mark,

Why the stiff top deck?

Or am I the only person still running the kit one ::)

[MarkB]

Hi Keith,

Well I keep trying the kit top deck, and finding on high grip tracks that the car doesn't seem as precise. Last time I tried was on a tight and twisty track, and lost lots of turn-in steering.

I do see other team drivers running two layer top dexks for extra stiffness - now that takes me back a bit. Not felt the need yet.

On some lower grip tracks, we actually find the kit top deck better. And no you're not the only one ::)

Mind you didn't seem to be slowing you up much this year ;)

Cheers
MarkB

[Tim Branigan]

Hi Mark, can you give me a bit of advice for BTCC at WLRC this weekend on inserts. It's likely to be hot so which way should |I be looking to go with the inserts? stick with the med b or go to some kind of foam? Cheers Tim.

[MarkB]

If it stays hot, I'll be sticking to Medium B's. Don't think foam is the way to go for modified - maybe LP24 Black or Blue foam for stock (both need shaping to fit).

If it gets very hot them maybe something Firmer - say Sorex Firm Bs, Medium As or Echo inserts. Lets hope that doesn't happen!

Cheers
MarkB

[Ritz]

Sorry for the late reply, I would NEVER recommend the use of an ultrasonic bearing bath (vibrating bath) the clean such small bearings, as it can just as easily vibrate the ball cages apart as well as get the dirt out.

I always found soaking the bearings in WD40 whiclst you strip that area and clean, once they had a good soak, give them a spin and flush them with WD40, once they sounds OK, flush them with Motor Spray. (all this done with shields off as well).

On the smaller bearings, I would then drop a little bit of thin oil in there, on the bigger bearings (like the diff), just a tiny bit of grease.


I've done this a few times, and it never seems to work! They always feel notchy afterwards! I think I must be doing it wrong...

[alexoutrim]

hi mark,
i have been racing a losi for about 6 months and have now bought a mission s1, but with a carbon chassis as extra (got it cheap). I havent built it yet but do you have any tips for building it and also i will be racing it on carpet indoors, so any extras that i should get and any good setups aswell
thanks alot (also this is the first car i will have ever built)

[MarkB]

Follow the instructions - Schumacher instructions have improved a lot, and you won't go far wrong.

Spend a lot of time building the shocks - do it carefully and try not to mark the shock shafts. If you want to reduce the ride height trim 2mm of the "top" of the bottom ball joint.

For racing my current top 5 recommendations of speed secrets to add onto a Mission kit are :-

1) RW pulleys
2) Grey belts - for stock and 19-turn only
3) Spring tuning kit
4) Alloy layshaft mounts
5) Kwick-klips - use to replace castor plastic spacers, and improve speed of change and range of adjustment.

I have an early 2003 27-turn set up for T27s on carpet - its on paper so let me know if you want it and I'll get it typed up.

Cheers
MarkB

[Giblet McShannon]

Where do you get kwick klips from Mark ?

[MarkB]

Kiwk Klips are a Schumacher speed secrets option - part number U2252. So any Schumacher stockist...

Cheers
MarkB

[MarkB]

I've passed this on to a few people, and don't remember posting it here.

We've found at some tracks the "thick" rear roll cente kit spacer works great (Bedworth was the latest), and at others it is too thick. We therefore run 1mm spacers instead, most often plastic ones between the chassis and lower suspension blocks.

Now the rear block doesn't quite sit straight when you do this. So I've cut a spacer out of scrap lexan (we've all got bodyshell offcuts) using the roll centre kit as a pattern. Make sure it fits flush to the chassis, and it will work fine.

And a quick progress report on the MIP driveshafts - quality kit as you'd expect from MIP, and seem smooth and strong.

Cheers
MarkB

[MarkB]

Right you've all seen the picture of the new touring car on racing-cars.com by now, and those at WLRC heard Robin Schumacher annouce it.

A great BTCC round at WLRC - made even better by a 1-2 from Jason and I. We've been honing the set up of the Mission during the year (ok Jason a bit more than me!) and now have a spot on WLRC set up for 19-turn. Anyone wanting a copy of the set up let me know (Jason's was slight different, but not much!).

Oh and yes the "lexan" rear roll centre mod was fitted, and did the business ;)

See those at the STCC WLRC next Sunday (dry but not so hot as last Sunday please!!!)

Cheers
MarkB

[jason]

Mark,

I assume by "slightly different" you mean more scarey as usual.

Jason

[mick]

mark,

with the new prices our new chassis's have to be missions and you say trim 2mm off the shock ball ends to lower, so before i start what is the normal ride height without trimming off the ends and the ride hight when this is done.
also would you invest in the threaded shock bodies?

cheers
mick

[jason]

Mick,

We normally run at 5mm ride height with the rear about 0.5-1mm higher than the front.
The reason for cutting 2mm off the top of the rod end is more to do with increasing the upward travel on the suspension than ride height issues but it does help when using the softer springs because they are longer than the usual reds and yellows.
You should still maintain an overall shock length of 64-65mm but with the cut down rod ends it allows the wheels to travel above the chassis level the increased travel is useful if you catch a kerb or go over a bump cornering when the chassis is in roll.
The threaded shocks are a good idea because they make it easier to adjust the preload and level the chassis.
Hope that explanes it .

Jason

[wil]

Hi mark,

I have a couple of questions for you (or anyone else who can answer them!)

1. What manufacturer of spur gears do you find works well on the mission, i want to get a 85t spur, any suggestions?

2. On the fantom super stock, is there a spring combination which works better than the standard?

3. is it better to use the grey stock belts when using a 19t motor?

cheers
will

[jason]

Will,

Both Mark and I use RW spur gears but you need to fit the adapter they are machined so are more accurate than the moulded ones.

On the Fantom 19T we run Trinity green springs on both sides on smaller tracks and green +ve Blue -ve on larger tracks. Earlier Fantom 19t came with black springs but the later ones seem to be comming through with green springs on both sides.

As for brushes we run Putmuns or Trinity 4503s most of the time.

I wouldn't run the grey rear belt for super stock but the front one is fine.

Jason

[wil]

Ok, thanks jason, that helps a lot.

cheers
will

[MarkB]

At last something to add to my ask thread!

I think the early Fantom 19-turn motors came with blue springs, not black Jason. And yes the latest have green springs, which is handy if you have both for our tuning advice.

RW spur gears are easier to find and are reliably true, although I also have 85T spurs from Associated and other manufacturers.

Rarely I seem to be more aggressive than Jason, and run the grey belt outdoors for 19-turn and 27-turn. I'd rethink that indoors!

Cheers
MarkB

[rice98w]

mark and anyone else, please see my post re- staffor setup

[Finch]

hi mark,
I am just starting and thinking of buying a mission, can you tell me the main differences between the s1 and the carbon and is it much better to go for the carbon version.

Also does it come with a shell

cheers chris

[MarkB]

I think the difference is the carbon version has carbon fibre chassis, upper deck and shock towers. The other version has a composite version of the above, and is a bit less rigid as a result. If you are racing then I'd recommend the carbon version, especially at the "lower" prices recently announced.

Neither version comes with a body shell.

Cheers
MarkB

[maxwell]

Hi Mark
you may remember me, i had the shop on site at the STCC south hants track,my local.
I am trying to find out what other tracks may benefit from a mobile shop on race days, as you visit quite a few i thought i would ask if you can think of any.
Sorry if this is inconvenient..
Look forward to your reply or any others

[marcoski]

Maxwell, please conduct your shop business by PM. And while you are about it, please complete your profile as per rule 5. Two infringements in one post!! Wheres that ban user button :P ;D

[wil]

Hi guys,

I have just fitted the alloy spur adpater to my mission, and there are two parts left over that I didnt use, the 'e' clip and the '8' shaped part.
It works fine without them, but i just want to check that it is ok with out them??
It's an RW spur if that makes a difference.

thanks
will

[MattW]

Will, you don't need those parts, they were needed for other Schumacher cars.

[Xizor]

I have a question for the guru's ???
I'm just building a new Mission (carbon) and would like your opinion on what adjustments affect the handling the most.
After tyres please put these in order:
Front castor
Front toe-in
Front camber
Rear toe-in
Rear camber
Spring rates
Ride height
Anything I missed!

Room for a few arguments here I feel. ;)

Any info. much appreciated.
Cheers,

Frank

[Barry_Hughes]

Frank,
For the best advice on affects of the settings I suggest buying the XXX Main Set up book.

It covers all cars and is worth it's weight in gold!

[MarkB]

Barry's advice is the best you'll get!

Personally speaking the biggest change to overall handling seems to come from altering the castor. Less for more turn-in, more for greater on-power grip.

As the good book says most of the rest are fine tuning - except when taken to extremes. For example a 5mm ride height will work ok, a 3mm ride height will tend to bottom out and a 8mm ride height will rend to cause grip roll.

And remember its a balance front and rear you're after. Too much front end doesn't always meand you have to reduce front end grip - you could add more rear end grip...

One final point - make sure the droop is set, as if its wrong it does really nasty things to the handling (hence I learned really quickly how to set it!)

Cheers
MarkB

[jason]

And the quickest way to get a car set up is to work logically with a team mate.
Or in Keiths case at Stafford do as your told and TQ and win the national.

Jason

[KRob]

I was wondering when that was going to come up ::)
I hoped you'd forgotten :-X

All joking aside, I owe a big thank you to Jason and Mark for their help at the Stafford Nat, without which, I would not have done so well.
Cheers Guys!! 8)

[Ozmissionary]

Hi all, this is my first post in this group.

I asked a couple of questions in the warpspeed chassis area, but thought I might try my luck here also. ;D

Is there a preferred mounting solution for transponders? Are there special mounts you can buy that fit the Mission?

Mark, you mentioned droop. What have you found to be the ideal? I run outdoor on a relatively high grip and often tight track.

Does anyone know why Schumacher are now supplying yellow springs?

Thanks All!!

[MarkB]

Answered the transponder mount elsewhere...

Personally droop only became a factor for me when we fitted the roll centre kit to our Missions. Since then I check it as regularly as camber and toe-in - my set up sheets tend to show 2mm front and 2 or 3 mm rear.

Read the XXX-main chassis guide, and it will back up that droop is not the thing to make major tuning adjustments. Castor, spring rate, shock mounting position, one-way etc are more like it. You'll only notice droop if its wildly out - say left to right, or front to rear...

Assuming we're on the same page, Schumacher have made Yellow springs for years?

Cheers
MarkB

[Ozmissionary]

Thanks Mark,

The new kit I just received from the UK had yellow springs supplied as standard (along with the new bearings), the previous one had blue.

Mark

[Remo]

mine came with reds...

[Garry]

Mines a year old and came with blues. Does one of the cheap new Missions come with Torx screws yet?

[Ozmissionary]

From what I can gather, and as I had to wait for mine to come from the factory, it's as fresh as you can get. No torx screws though. Just yellow springs and the new bearings with blue synthetic seals (which look better).

I'd really like to know the methodology behind the springs. Surely it isn't just what's on hand?

[Remo]

mine (less than a week old came with 2 Torx and 2 Allen screws that goes on the bumper rest are pozidrive self strippers!!!

[dizlal]

Blue springs no torx screws, but i use stick not saddles and changing pinion is a pain as you have to move the motor closer to the spur and the battery strap gets in the way.

[Paul_U]

did my work experience at schuamcher just as they where getting ready to pack the mission, i found out regarding the springs its wat ever they have got the most of.

Paul

[MarkB]

Sounds like "spring pot luck" - mind you we've used all three of blue/red/yellow durign the year, so they are all good!

Good to hear the new bearings are in kits now - they are seriously free. On some of the dustier tracks I'd recommend regular flusing of these (or for that matter any other) bearing...

Remo - Until Torx is more widrespread, I understand Schumacher are spllying both types. I will also admit to cheating and using TiR hex headed screws throughout ;)

See those of you at Ashby on Saturday...

MarkB

[wil]

Mark,

Just a quick question on the TiR screw set.
Im sure you have the alloy diff mounts so wouldnt have this problem but i dont. The kit screws have differnt threads for the plastic parts and alloy parts, are the TiR screws compatable with plastic and alloy diff mounts??

cheers
will

[MattW]

I would guess that the full screw set would just be M3 and therefor should be ok in alloy and plastic. I have TIR screws in my car, but i didn't get a proper screw set, just a bag of screws!! I was using M3 allen head screws before i got the TIR screws.

[MarkB]

Like Matt I'm not sure what the Mission TiR set comes with - the Axis set used to have self-tapping and machine screws.

There is still enough plastic on an "alloy" mission - the middle diff mounts, the bumper mounts, servo mounts and so on...

I've got some TiR self-tapping screws that go into the plastic parts well, and also use machine screws in plastic (although these are harder to screw in first time around).

The TiR web site mentions a Spool (aka fixed-diff) for the Mission soon - which would save the current methods involving a front diff + some super-glue!

Cheers
MarkB

[MattW]

Mark, You don't need super glue, it really can be easier than you think ;) Although a Titanium one strikes me as a really good idea.

[dhamblin]

Surely you just lock the diff up really tight? Why use super glue, surely it doesn't come loose that easily? ???

[jason]

Dan,

Best bet is to take the diff balls out then lock it up nice and tight. Then glue it just to make sure.

Jason

[dhamblin]

Might try it over the winter then! ;)

[Ian s]

I make my spool by taking out the balls and replacing them with the cardboard from the packaging of any schumacher spare part. Its very quick, simple and easy to take apart again! Id recomend lining up the "solts" on the outdrive so u can easily tell if it slipping any.

[Derek Newbould]

Wish I'd thought of that before I got the Araldite out :-

[Starkey]

Hi,
Recently bought a second hand Mission, one thing that bugs me, is the way the main belt does not run through the centre of the tensioning bearing.

The car had RW diff pully's already, but on the rear diff the two belts touch each other.

Is there some sort of seperator that fits over the gears between the belts, which would push over the main belt, making it run more centrally over the tension bearing.

Or is it nothing to worry about, but it does seem wear down the flat side of the belt.

[wil]

The two belts shouldn't touch each other, there should be a spacer on the rear diff which seperates them.

[MarkB]

The rear RW pulley doesn't use a spacer between the belts - and we were taking the spacer off the kit pulley anyhow.

As for the belts touching - I think I used to know the answer to this, and have now forgotten it! In which case I'll leave it to the other guys, and watch the response with interest.

By the way I've been making up different sizes of rear roll centre spacers. The kit is over 2mm, and many of you have seen the lexan version which is 0.8mm. I have now found 1.5mm plasti-card in my LMS and made spaces up out of that - worked a treat at Snetterton for the STCC.

Cheers
MarkB

[wil]

The rear RW pulley doesn't use a spacer between the belts - and we were taking the spacer off the kit pulley anyhow.


That makes me look a bit stupid then, I have been using the spacer on the RW rear diff for some time now! That could explain the tight squeeze there is too fit the belts on! ;D

I have put a normal schumacher diff spacer on the rear diff, i was getting a bit anoyed with the belts rubbing together. I dont have any problem with the belts fitting on tightly, might be because i have an x-ray belt on the rear.

[dhamblin]

I have the standard Mission belts and even with the spacer they do not take up the full width of the diff.

I prefer it with the spacer on as when I left it off the drive train seem slightly tighter... :o

[wil]

The belts used to be a tight fit, but that was when I had the pulley fences on the wrong way! They are ok now though ;D

helps if you have them on the rite way round.

[dizlal]

Maybe a daft question but how much give should there be on the main belt ? I've basically got the bearing tensioner on the lowest postion. It does'nt seem to do to much.

[MattW]

It's a matter of personal opinion. Also you will need it slightly different depending of whether you have RW pullies or standard ones. Mine is just below half way, but i have RW puillies. Generally if you have std pullies i would say you need it as low as it will go.

[Remo]

i don't keep it tight cos in my opinion the tensioner is on the wrong side! By having the tensioner on the "drive" side will only wear / stretch the belt quicker (esp with the grey belt). I think it really should have been on the "return" side like every thing else that uses a tensioner... correct me if i am wrong... :o

[DA_cookie_monstA]

It is the return side that gets all flappy for want of a better word, so yeah, you are right.

TELL SCHUMACHER BEFORE THEY FINISH THE MI2

[Garry]

On the Schumacher CAD pic of the MI2, the tensioner is on the top of the motor mount.



Another thing, why is it going to be called MI2? What does the 'I' stand for?

Might stand for imposible, would be a good name for the new car "Mission Imposible 2" ;D

[MarkB]

Now I'm back racing modified indoors :-, I've taken the faithful grey belt out and refitted a black belt.

Now the grey belt I run very loose, with the tensioner virtally at the bottom. It might get tightened up for 19-turn, but not much. Oh and for hard braking at Bedworth!

The black belt now has the tensioner almost at the top - mind you it is for high grip indoors.

I have seen belts soo tight you could play a tune on them. Too much guys, so loosen them off a bit. Your major worry with a loose belt is belt slip, and if you listen closely you can hear that.

BTW a new belt will need running in to stretch it. Readjust the tensioner when you first for a new belt, then re-check and adjust after 2-3 runs.

I thought MI2 stood for "Mission 2", but keep the alternaives coming...

Cheers
MarkB

[MattW]

Good evening Mr PRO ;D

Are you really suffering with skip with the grey front belt?? Shouldn't be a problem. The only time i ran the black one was when i built my first car, then it was recomended that the grey was fine and i have run one ever since. Any have been down to 9 turn indoors ;D without noticing any problems.

LOL on the naming!!

[MarkB]

Thanks ::)

I had a grey belt last months of outdoor racing - it actually turned black ;) Now I run them seriously loose and towards the end of its life a marshall asked me if my belt was skipping. Tried a hard braking session, and sue enough it was slightly.

Mind you the belt was really stretched, and has had to be replaced since (I think a stone did for it at Milton Keynes).

We cannot run Grey belts at our indoor club - 12-turn + astro turf + yellow min pins. Serious grip, and means you have to use black belts. It is very unusual, and I run grey belts with T27s on primafelt elsewhere.

Cheers
MarkB

[shawn]

:-Hello Mark. Can you give advise me on a reasonable set up for running indoors on a polished wooden surface?

I have a brand new mission, which is set up as per the instructions at the moment and I am hoping to get a few tips on the finer points of chassis tuning for this surface.

I have already got yellow mini pins with inserts and oh yeah.......a standard silver can motor with a 21 tooth pinion. (I have to use this will be my first indoor meeting).

Another query you could perhaps offer an answer to is; what are the advantages/disadvantages between different size wheels rims.
I have both 24mm and 26mm.

wish me luck. My 33 year old pride will take a severe kicking this weekend when I get beaten by a 7 year old. :-[
Thanks very much.

[dhamblin]

Shawn, couple of things:

1. Can you get a silver can motor through the hole in the motor mount?
(I tried with an old Tamiya one but the bit that sticks out at the pinion end did not go through the hole)

2. Are you racing at WKRCC(Tonbridge) this weekend? If so There are 3 of us running Missions who will be happy to give advice. :)

Mark B would you recommend running a front spool (locked diff) on this surface, I am testing it this weekend and I would like some advance warning on whether it works! ;)

When i first got my mission i put my mardave 540 in it because i wanted to see how it went, it does go on the pinion just sits at the end of the shaft.

[shawn]

Hello Dan.
Yes I am hoping to go on Sunday.
I have used a small grinder to enlarge the hole in the mount so that the motor sits correctly.
Ian has sold me some mini pins but how m uch grip do you actually get from the floor ?

[dhamblin]

Not a lot!

If you are using mini-pin 25 yellows they need to be worn in, after about 1 1/2 meetings they give a nice balance between grip and sliding.

Mini-pin 25 blues are not very grippy although they last longer.

Mini-pin 20 yellows last about 3 meetings but you can use them straight away and be quick.

Mini-pin 20 blues are good for 4 meetings, they are quick straight away, and are for when there is quite a bit of grip on the floor.

I used the 20 blues last year near the end of the season and really liked them, personally I would use either of the two 20 mm tyres, in the end it comes down to preference.

You are quite lucky as the club champion races a Mission as do myself, James Brooker and James Paras, so you can find out what set-up we are using.

As a starter though I suggest you spend this season just enjoying the racing and learning how to drive the car. If you really get into it then you can think about getting bits for your car to tune the set-up to how you like it.

Hopefully see you Sunday, and remeber: Any questions, just ask. ;)

regards

Dan Hamblin

[MarkB]

Hi guys,

I've not raced on polished wood for years.

I would try a front locked diff/spool, to drag the car out of the corners. You'll lose a touch of top speed though.

Considered trying Yellow Rally blocks on the front? Might understeer, and do last a bit longer.

I also thought that Silver mini pins were designed for this type of surface, and I've never tried them. Worth a shot.

The minipins are a 25mm tyre, meaing IMHO they fit best on a 25m wheel. Hence I use lots of Schumacher 25mm wheels.

24mm wheels will "squash" the tyre up, and make a thinner & taller tyre. 26mm wheels will "flattern" then tyre out, and make a wider and shorter tyre.

Cheers
MarkB

[dhamblin]

Thanks Mark, will try the spool and report back here if it works!

Regarding the Mini-pin silvers, I have heard they wear too quickly to be of any use. ;D

[MattW]

Personally i would think that the spool would take away too much turn-in on a slippery floor. But like Mark i haven't run on that surface for a couple of years.

[Mark McCulloch]

I run on Polished wood regularly, not with a Mission unfortunately but this is just a general diff setup for a few of the cars at our track. I find that you need your diffs fairly loose, with the front just slightly tighter than the rear. The 20mm Yellow Minipins work great with the 20mm comp foam inserts in them but if your track is not very dusty then the 25mm should work just as well, but be aware as Mark says they dont go well on 24mm wheels i tried a set last sunday and they go into quite an odd shape and the car felt quite loose but on 25mm or 26mm wheels there great.

Hope this helps
Mark

[shawn]

Thanks for all the excellnt feedback.
You have sorted out my tyre choice for me so the next thing is....
What springs and camber settings do you suggest?
I have got yellow springs which were supplied with the kit on both ends at the moment.

[dhamblin]

Blue on front grey on rear.

As to camber settings I don't think even we are 100% on what works best.

Try 2 deg. on the rear and about 1 deg. on the front.

Matt W - surely it is possible to tune threst of the chassis to get the corner turn in? (as it says in the XXX-main book)

[MattW]

In theory yes, in practice not sure. Try it and see how it goes. Generally i would expect it to be similar to racing on tarmac in the wet. Generally in these conditions Spools don't seem to work so well. The best set-up seems to be fairly loose diffs at both ends.

[MarkB]

Right - now I've had time to think about it (its been a strange week) Matt is right. Looser diffs usually work best on more slippery surfaces, and as the spool is very tight then it might not. I'd try it just to see - it will go where the front wheels are pointing!

Comparing it to wet tarmac is good - try blue or grey springs, on the second innter top hole.

I don't change rear camber (-2 degrees) or rear toe-in (-2 degrees), and front camber not much (-1 degrees). I'd recommend no rear roll centre mod now I think of it.

A car can be made to go round the track with tuning - it you want fast then you're after a more optimum set up...

Cheers
MarkB

[dhamblin]

Cheers guys, will muck around with the tightness of the diff's as much as I can on Sunday! :)

[dizlal]

I race on a very slippery floor and use the front diff slackened of 1/2turn and the rear 3/4. I also tried the silver mini pins nice for one race, but did'nt really get what you would call value for money with them.

[dhamblin]

Well, I tried it!

Only managed a locked front diff with some slightly soft batteries, but it made the car have tons of on power steering.
Only problem using it was to get the acceleration point just right so as not to immediatly steer into a barrier. The car seemed more stable than it used to be.
One major problem with using it though is when you are going through a left-right sweeping bend the reaction is to blip the throttle mid-way through it, where as it is best to just steer through the bends.
Think I may go back to using the diff conventionally for the next meeting.
(The A final winner with his carbon Mission won by a lap!) :o

[sam c]

im fairly new to the rc scene and want to know what is a good set up for an indoor carpet track???

[MarkB]

Good on you for trying dhamblin mate - you'll never learn anything unless you experiment from time to time. Which is why despite hating practice, you'll see my running around on practice days and odfd Sundays just to test out a few things.

Hi Sam - you don't say what type of carpet, motor and tyres. Makes a BIG difference. If its T27s on something like the Watford carpet let me know, and I can e-mail a stock Mission set up to you.

While I remember latest "go faster" bits to get a run on my car are the TiR anodised drive shafts. Nothing wrong with the MIP Schumacher versions, just the TiR versions are a funky blue colour and a lot lighter. Four weeks in and all is going well for both stock and modified racing.

Cheers
MarkB

[dhamblin]

Too true Mark, I will try to test the looser diffs at the next meeting as well. In fact I already planned to use this whole winter season to test virtually every setting on my car just to see how each one changes the handling. Might not give a good end of season result but the gains for the future will be very helpfull

It is a pity that Shumcher do not do more easily adjustable ones like on the x-ray. With the new more open diff housing design on the Mi2 do you think they will make more eaily adjustable diffs?

regards

Dan Hamblin

[MarkB]

Dan,

Firstly I don't know, and given how much an improvement the Mission diffs (especially with the RW pulleys) are over the 99/Axis/Axis2 diffs I'd not be too upset that they stay as they are.

Secondly strange you should say that, as at our local club I pointed out that a Mission had a loose diff and its owner told me it would take ages to adjust. Five minutes later it was done! I'd previously shown him a 10 minute belt change.

Seems to me R/C maintenance is like the rally mechanics must be - the more you practice the better you get. Get used to taking your car apart, adjusting things then putting them back together. Then when you need to just before a race, you'll be able to.

Jason will remember a 4 minute front diff change at WLRC...

Cheers
MarkB

[MattW]

Mark has a valid point. I've had a few people tell me how hard the mission is to work on.........rubbish :P . Yeah i guess it's like anything else, it's what you are used to. People told me that the spur gear would take ages to change when the car first came out. So i timed a change, 5 mins and that was the first race day i ran the car.

The mission diffs are now in my opinion a prooven very reliable unit. There are a a couple of things i might change given the option, but if it ain't broke............................................. ..

[Remo]

i think the mission is only hard to work on if you havent changed the screws from pozidrive to hex or torx... then it isnt much of an issue... :)

[gatesy]

Ive just ordered a Mission, are there any hop-ups you can reccomend? Such as the screws mentioned above!!

[schumacher355]

hi mark
have u got a set up sheet for the mission s1 for the near coming watford event
thanks tony

[Remo]

Ive just ordered a Mission, are there any hop-ups you can reccomend? Such as the screws mentioned above!!


i'll give you a clue, its on page 5 on this actual thread.

[gatesy]

Oooops, Ill check that out then!!! ::)

[Robfo]

im using the x ray rear belt on my mission and its alot better than the schumacher one i had on before, but does the front one fit? If it does i will run that, Any ideas?

[Remo]

Can you tell me why you are using the Xray Belt and how you mean better?... I have hear Xray ppl are using Schu black belts in the Xray for Mod... If for stock then the grey belts are the ones to get AFAIK... cheers.

[Robfo]

im running a black belt on the front and a rear x ray belt on my car. The xray belt seems to last longer and its thinner and doesnt clog up as much as the schumacher part. Im due for a front belt and just wondered if the x ray one fitted :) So does anyone know?

[Garry]

I don't think so. The Schumacher belt goes from the rear diff to the front diff, whereas the Xray hase to go from the layshaft to the front diff. The Schumacher belt will be too long.

[Robfo]

thanks, i'll get a new black one then. What rubber tyres work best on carpet?

[MattW]

The x-ray front belt is considderably shorter. I use a schumacher grey one and have had no problems down to 8 turn mod.

Rear belts: As i understand it ours and theirs have the same number of teeth. However the X-ray one is a little bit thinner and very slightly longer - it really isn't a massive amount. However, the schuie grey one is more flexible than the x-ray one. Hence you end up with the funny situation of some Schumacher mod drivers running X-ray rear belt and some X-ray stock drivers running Schumacher grey ones ;D

[Robfo]

I prefer the x ray one :) Hadnt noticed it was longer though, im sure your right though. How long do the front grey belts last with modifieds?

[MattW]

They are not a problem. I have never HAD to change one. I usually change them if i am too lazy to clean them!!!!! They tend to get dirty and go black.

That said, i think i remember Mark saying a few pages back that with mini pins on carpet it can be a little hard on them and they may skip a little.

[Robfo]

I can only race in the winter so its indoors with loads of grip so i'll get a black one. How do you clean you belts (soaking in wd40 meybe)?

[MattW]

if there is any carpet/crap in the teeth i just dig it out. The blackness on the top side i usually clean off with motor cleaner.

Mine have been fine with "normal" rubber tyres and foams on carpet. I haven't used mini pins for years so not sure personally.

[Remo]

I have used a Xray 3mm rear belt and with a 12T it skips like hell and within 10 runs I have stripped all its teeth on both the belt and the pulley, thats the last time I would use Xray belt there... now I use grey rear for stock and 19T and Schu black rear for mod.... I know some Xray guys are using the schu black rear belts now cos its stronger than the Xray part.... ;D

[Remo]

Where's MarkB these days.... still busy writing columns??? ;)

[MarkB]

The cheek Remo, what with the RWC and World Rally to watch, along with actually getting around to racing at the weekend. Mind you the columns are a sore point as I still have two to write up from September :-[

Our local club runs mini-pins on astro-turf, which is seriously high grip. We don't run grey belts front or rear as the grip levels with a 12-turn motor is too high - a rear grey belt has been know to snap, and front ones get seriously stretched. Everywhere else I've been not a problem - my last grey front belt turned black through months of use (rather than poor maintenance!).

Soaking the black belts in WD-40 for a week will soften them up a bit - as a tip then have to be run in to take the "shine" off them before the WD-40 will soak in to the material.

We had a big debate about X-Ray rear belts at our club for the last two weekends. Now I've run one there for some time with no problem. Others run them with the same RW diff pulleys I run, and like Remo strip teeth.

Our thinking is the RW pulley is physically smaller than the Schumacher kit diff pulley, and the X-Ray belt is shorter than the Mission rear belt. Smaller and shorter = more prone to slipping, and slipping = stripped teeth. We think the alloy layshaft pulley helps things, but its not a cure.

I'd not heard of X-Ray drivers swaping the other way - our LMS is a big X-Ray dealer, so I'll ask next time I'm there.

Cheers
MarkB

[Remo]

Tell RW that and he'll say the moulded original pulley are fat :D

The Xray belt in question is the thin 3 mm one... now they said that is good for stock and can handle mod.... for stock its no better than the grey and in mod I ripped all its teeth off with my Fantom 12x3 becasue it is definitely looser although they both got 61 teeth (61 I think) so technically it must be like Mark said the RW pullies give more slack (cos they are perfect ;) )

Catch you round Mark!

[MattW]

Remo. I usually run a 4mm X-ray belt, and haven't had a 3mm in my own car. I know someone who stripped one at Halifax, although we think his layshaft pully was a little worn.

One of the test cars has done some serious milage with a 3mm belt and there doesn't seem to be massive problems. It was skipping a little but nothing major, and it has had to cope with some serious ponies ;D Thinking about it though i don't think it has RW pullies in it, but the recent moulded ones seem to be so much better than the origional ones, you wouldn't believe it is the same part.

[Remo]

Shame Schu dont get the 20T made by RW yet... with machine cut tooth acetol pulley it will have less chance to skip (not rounded teeth like the moulded ones) and will last much longer too... for now i may have to switch to ally one. 8)

[adyb]

Do apologize if this post is in the wrong place, or already been talked about.

Some great guy e-mailed me a setup sheet ;) with regards to droop it states 2mm. Is this 2mm droop (upwards travel) from rest, or 2mm above the chassis, or finally +2 on the hudy gauge.
Must admit this is one measurment that always gets me, as there seem to be different ways people talk about it.
How do you read it??

[Ade]

The easiest way to measure droop is to set the car on a flat surface making a not of the ride height at each end for example 5mm front and 5.5mm at the back. Then lift the car at front until the wheels lift then measure the ride height at which this happens the difference between the two will be the droop measurement. So of your front ride height is 5mm you would want the wheel to lift off at 7mm for 2mm droop.

I think that makes sense... Clear as mud ;D ::)

Ade ;D

[MarkB]

If the set up sheet came from where I think it did ;), the writer assumed 2mm droop means the +2 marking on the Hudy guages.

I wouldn't be without a good set of guages - including the droop set. Always measure a car with motor + batteries in it, and on a flat level surface!

Cheers
MarkB

[dhamblin]

Mark, don't suppose you could tell us where the set-up sheet came from?

Its just that adyb races at Tonbridge and he already does two more laps than me over 4 minutes and I will look a right wally if he continues to lap me any more times! ;D

[adyb]

Dan, Only related to Carpet, dont worry ::)

[MarkB]

One of mine I think ;)

MarkB

[dhamblin]

:)

[Ozmissionary]

Hi,

I have no doubt this has been asked before, but what are the circlip and plastic 'figure eight' items for in the spur gear adaptor. No instructions were included, and I'm stumped! :-

[jason]

They are to hold on the adapter in older SST and axis cars. Not needed in a mission.

Jason

[MarkB]

Hi Jason - see the 1/12th racing is going ok!

Spot on - that was to hold on the spur gear on older models. Mind you many of us used 3 x e-clips as it had a nasty habit of coming off when you least expected it to 8)

Cheers
MarkB

[Martin P]

Hey, couple of questions,

The big cut outs under the diffs in the chassis, are these realy neccasary as a stone has found its way in and taken a big chunk out of my front AND read belt, how much of a difference will the flexy belts make.

Also, my diff feels gritty, will i just need to add some greas and rebuild them, or is there somthing wrong.

Thanks.

[MarkB]

Tried running tape under the chassis and have covered that hole by mistake. Trust me when a stone gets trapped in that case, it makes a very big mess.

A big stone will do the same with the hole uncovered - seen it once. Nasty!

Take the diff apart - you know how to do this without losing the adjustment don't you? Clean the diff balls, and re-grease them. Put it back together, and 9 times out of 10 that will cure it. The 10th time the diff rings will be shot, and need replacing. I've only replaced one set in a years hard racing.

Cheers
MarkB

PS - grey belts are awsome for stock and 19-turn. MattW uses them for mod, my local track is high grip and they don't like the abuse!

[MattW]

Cheers
MarkB

PS - grey belts are awsome for stock and 19-turn. MattW uses them for mod, my local track is high grip and they don't like the abuse!


Only the front, Even i'm not stupid enough to run the rear!!!

Mark B have you ever been to DMS in watford? If you have what set up did you run as i have been told its hard to get grip!!!Thanks
Mark

[MattW]

LOL, getting grip has never been a problem, personally i found getting rid of it more of a chalenge!!

Ok ill see how it goes, i have been told by near enough every one i know that grip is hard to get. Oh yeah i forgot to mention its on T-27's if that makes a difference lol.

[MattW]

i know it's on T27's, i was there last weekend!!! i had grip roll........

Ok thats a bit of good news, lol. I'd rather have grip roll than like driving on ice.

[MarkB]

Hi Mark,

Its been a year since I went to Watford, and like Matt I found lots of grip. My set up was used at the last meeting to get a top result in stock, so if you want it let me know and I can e-mail it to you.

IMHO the right insert goes a long way on T27s

This year its a choice - 30 miles to Lowestoft or 120 miles to Watford. Not a hard choice in winter!

I hope to make at least one Watford and one Carpet Masters meetings before the series ends. However for reasons I won't go into here I need to help out at our local club for a bit.

While I remember a running report on a couple of bits and pieces. The TiR driveshafts have been a top buy (note Schumacher now sell these and other TiR parts) - not only saving weight but also performing well in modified and stock. The 1.5mm version of the roll centre spacer is also doing the business on the handling front.

Now all I need is an Mi2 ;)

Cheers
MarkB

Thanks Mark a set-up sheet would be nice thanks. It must be the TC3's because now i think about it every one who has told me they dont get grip drives a TC3.

[adyb]

Mark L,
Follow marks setup sheet excatly for Watford, I Changed One bit at a time to complete the setup sheet from my last setup, to get a feel what each change did. If you don't have the right spacing for the rear roll center I would advise to make them up as it made a great improvement. My advise is to run the setup from practice so you can concentrate on racing line and not worry about setup because its well on the pace.
The only thing that different I used was the inserts, I was using JB Blues but some people told me that this is 'old school'?

I had a good meeting in 'stock' ;)

Have fun

and again thanks Mark B

[MattW]

I was using JB Blues when i was there, good enough for 3rd in Mod ;D

I am borrowing some tires off of a friend who is taking me because he said i might as well use a pair of his as if i buy some they wont be used hardly at all. Ill probly buy a set of them because the inserts make a huge difference. Thanks a lot for all you help.
Mark

[dhamblin]

adyb wrote:

I had a good meeting in 'stock'

I'm not surprised, you TQ'd and you would have won if you'd muscled your way back past your old mate from Eastbourne!

[mark barord]

I've recently noticed that my front belt on my Mission has developed a twist. I think that this is due to belt sits as far to the left of the rear pullet as it can. I.e it rubs on the short rear belt(I don't use the slip on guide thing) It then has to move across to the right in order to sit on the front pulley.
The problem is worse when I run with a one way fitted.
I don't use the guide on the rear pulley as the belt wants to run to the left but some thing some where can't be square surely?
Has anyone else noticed this, or got a solution?

[Martin P]

i have that problem aswell, also, the belt does not run on the belt tensioner properly, no matter how tight or lose it is. ??? ???

[MattW]

Mark, I have had the problem but i don't know what causes it. For some reason my first car was just like you describe, my second car the main belt always wants to run on the for RHS side of the rear pully.

Can only suspect that it might be something wrong with the belt?? Although if your's is more of a problem with a one way then maybe the one way isn't sitting perfectly in the frot housing. I know that the front one-ways do sit "looser" in the housings than a proper diff does.

Personally i didn't worry too much about it!! although it isn't great if the belt wants to run so far over that it may try and climb the short belt.

[jason]

The only time I've had this happen was when I assembled the front diff incorrectly. I had the outdrives on the correct sides but the pulley the wrong way round, it offsets the pulley by a few mm and scews the front belt.


Jason

[adyb]

Yeah I've have this too, the belt has a twist on the top half, half way down.
If the spur gear is turned slowly with no drive shafts nor pinion attached, the drive-train also a tight spot too that I can not get rid of. At the tight spot the spur gear can rotate back by it's self. Do you think that the 'twist' is causing a tight spot?

[MarkB]

Now that doesn't sound right Ady.

Jason's right (again ;)) - I've seen a few rear diffs built up the wrong way round with the RW pulleys. There is not much difference and it will fit, and the belts will ride a bit to the side.

Sounds like either the belt or the pulley has a problem - check the teeth or each for "stuff". We race on a strange carpet and have to check each every couple of weeks - toothbrush the belt, and a knife to get the rubbish out of the pulley teeth.

While I remember check the big bearings that the diffs ride in - saw a set of teflon shielded that hadn't been cleaned and seized solid. And other rotating bits as it might not be the belt - for example is one of the driveshaft blades worn out?

Cheers
MarkB

[mark barord]

I've checked everything and all is as it should be. I 'm running the rw pullies and the ali 20t pulley. I have put the belt spacer back on and the belt is now running fairly straight (about 1mm out along the whole length of the car, no twist to be seen) so perhaps the message is when all else fails follow the instructions!
Thanks for all the replies!

[mick]

quick question ref diff adjustment,
just built a mission with standard kit diffs, what is the correct adjustment as they come built but i was always told by holding 3 wheels the 4th should turn but with restistance. is this correct or too loose.

mick

[MattW]

Personally i try and build diffs so there is no slip, if you can turn the 4th then one of the diffs is slipping. Diff's are so so difficult to try and describe to someone how they should be built/setup/checked.

[Bt]

can you get a one way front diff for the mission? or mi2 as its soon to be ;)

[Mark McCulloch]

Hey Bryan,

There is a one way assembly for the mission, Part no. U2469

Not totally sure if the Mi2 will use the same assembly but one of the other guys will probably be able to clear this up.

Mark

[jason]

Yes you can get a oneway for the mission but I think you will have to change the outdrives to run it in an Mi2 because the pulley is offset to the opposite side. No doubt they will supply outdrives for the Mi2 seperatly the same as they do for the mission.

Jason

[MarkB]

Hi Mick - mine is a brutal way of checking for diff slip, and I'm almost reluctant to share it. Hold either the front or rear tyres between your knees, and turn both of the "other" tyres in the same direction. If there is slippage a diff is loose, if the belts click its tight enough.

This cannot do the belts much good, so YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED :P

I suspect this means my answer is the same as Matt's - the 4th wheel wouldn't slip...

Hi Bt - I have no proof for this, but I have a hunch that the Mission one way will "flip" over and fit the Mi2. Would avoid the need for retooling new front diffs and one ways. As Jason says we'll have to swap the outdrives over...and I could be wrong.

We'll know real soon... ;)

Cheers
MarkB

[Bt]

cheers guys, good to hear you can get a one way for it. definately need for slipply floor braking.

[Barry_Hughes]

Bryan,
I never run my Mission on slippery floors so I may be talking c**p (no comments please ;D)

But normaly you loose braking with a one way fitted, as it allows the front wheels to rotate freely, giving rear wheel braking only, ok on mega grip surfaces otherwise the car will just change ends as you apply brakes

[adyb]

I run on polished floor most through out the winter, would imagine that a one-way would be no good at all, as you would require all four wheels to be braking ,as barry says 'the car would change end'. Have heard that running a solid diff is the way to go, but i have not tried this :-

[Mark McCulloch]

I agree guys, i generally run both my diffs very loose indoors as it stops the car from understeering. The locked diff idea would create mega understeer in my view but it would also produce alot of pulling power coming from the front wheels which could pull the car round. Never tried it so i'm not in a position to comment but i think a one-way indoors would take some very careful driving indeed!

Mark

[scoyle]

I have tried the solid diff and ordinary diff indoors. The solid diff as you right said gives lots of pulling power out of the corner - I didn't like it as it almost pulled the car round too quickly on the exit. I know other people who use it (expecially TC3 drivers for some reason) and seem to do very well - I think it's just down to driving style.

As for the one-way I never even tried it as you do need brakes indoors and applying brakes with a one way unless you are very careful just causes the car to 'swap ends'.

[Bt]

maybe it was just the mission i got a shot off, but whenever you started to turn in to the corner and brake the car just kept on going in a straight line, like a real car aquaplaning in the wet. Not very handy if you need to brake suddenly and get out of the way of something.

I know running a one way would only cause the back wheels to brake and does make it more lively under the brakes but you would be able to brake and stay on the track ;) maybe its just me, i've always been a one way man anyway. cheers for the info tho.

[MarkB]

Wow full on one-way braking on a slippery surface - that's more than lively :o

That sounds like seriously bad understeer Bt, and would suggest a set up problem (or three!) elsewhere on the car. Lots of things get more turn-in steering without the need for brakes and a one-way - less castor, softer front suspension, increase rear roll centre spacing... All of these will get what you want without making the chassis as unstable.

Cheers
MarkB

[Bt]

As i say it wasnt my car so i couldnt really say about the setup, it was fine to drive otherwise. Only when you tapped the brakes did things start to go wrong.. or rather in a straight line ;) Nevermind i shall find out for myself soon enough when my Mi2 arrives.

Runing a one way on slippy surface aint really that bad, its often very handy when you over do it a little and need to give the brakes a little squeeze to get the back end round (like a handbrake turn) and square off the corner. Well at least it is when your racing an old '94 spec Cat 2000 against scales and winning :D muhahaha

[AndyT]

Being a newbie, and having plently of tweaking time on my hands I'm slowly upgrading my mission. Could someone tell me though what the RW pulleys are?. In laymens terms, are they the cogs in the diffs or are they the cog that the motor meshes with?. Sorry to be so basic :-[


Cheers

Andy

p.s, i've already fitted the alloy layshaft mount and fitted threaded shock collars. Is It worthwhile changing the front layshaft mount thingy as well?

[Remo]

The RW pulleys are for your diffs, there are three versions: Front diff, Rear diff and the one way diff. They are three different versions. They are good becasue they are machined instead or moulded and that means they are perfectly round and also light weight when compared with the standard item.

However RW also makes the spurs an dpiniuons your motor and layshaft (Spur is the big one and Pinion are the small one mounted on your motor shaft).

The front and rear alloy diff mounts are nice to have but not as important I feel as the lay shaft mount... ( I think thats what you have already). :)

[AndyT]

Ahh ok, so RW is the company then?. I do have the layshaft mounts already. How hard are the diffs to get apart to fit the new machined pulleys?

[Remo]

Provided you got both 1.5mm and 2 mm hex drivers (1.5 for the lock screw and 2mm for the adjusting screw)and some diff lube, it shouldnt take more than 5-10 mins to swap each pulley... (once the diff's out of the car- which is the harder bit!) Remember make sure the pulley is the right way round when reassembling and it goes back into the car the right way too!!! you should notice the pullies are offset to one side... and finally after a run or two recheck the diff make sure they are not slipping too much etc...

[AndyT]

Ok i'm gonna get some, just waiting for a new screw set to arrive. When you say slipping what do you exactly mean. At the moment if I rotate one wheel, the other wheel rotates in the opposite direction. If I hold one wheel and turn the other, the drivetrain turns. I assume this is right as I havent changed anything from when I bought it.

[Remo]

if you hold the spur still, , and you hold one wheel say left, ,you shouldnt be able to rorate the left wheel on the same axle (slight give is ok) for full general setting instructions see Pages 23, 25 of the Mission manual...

[MarkB]

Hi Andy,

I think you've got a good idea of what the RW parts are now from Remo.

There is a seperate thread on Schumacher Diffs where we talk about adjustment. And as Remo says the manual gives sound advice.

Make sure you get the diff moulding the right way round - the front is obvious, but the rear will fit in the mountings the wrong way round. I've seen a couple of local drivers to this.

Failing that find a friendly local team driver to help ;)

Cheers
MarkB

[mark barord]

I have just rebuilt the front end of my Mission (new every thing except the driveshafts) and I have now got the alloy hubs on the front. These have a flat face which allows you to check the castor angle.
So I checked the castor angles and low and behold they were 2 degrees different from one side to the other! I think that the angle that the turnbuckle comes out of the top wishbone is the cause of the difference. I.e not exactly at 90 degrees to the hinge pin.
The correction is easy with the kwick clips but I just wondered if anyone else had found this to be a problem as it could be the cause of an odd handleing car.

[MattW]

I have heard of the problem, but must admit i've never bothered to check for it!!!!!!!!!

[jason]

Never noticed, would have put it down to hitting something if I had anyway.

Jason

[Nemysys]

Hi

I don't confess to being a brilliant driver, but I am thinking of replacing my current SST sport to a Mission (either S1 or Carbon)

I race indoors on carpet, with a orion core stock 27

Should I buy the S1 or the Carbon version? What benefits would I get from either?

Assuming the car is setup correctly, will I notice a big difference in performance and handling between the SST and the Mission?


Thanks

[scoyle]

The only difference between the S1 and the carbon version is the different chassis, top plate and front/rear shock tower. Saying that , if you buy it now there is only abou £40 difference (probably more than the carbon bits would cost).


The S1 has more flex which I have found to be good on slippery surfaces (polished wood floor of a gym).

Cutting to the answer...I have both and would say you would probably be better getting the carbon version, especially if you plan to race outdoors, where the stiffer carbon chassis will really help. I would also say that the stiffer chassis would be good on carpet.

[jason]

Stephen,
The carbon car is a much better by because the lower chassis plate is about £50 on its own.

Jason

[Nemysys]

Thanks for the quick replies.

I have heard the carbon model may be more 'twitchy' and harder to control, is this correct?

I believe my current SST sport is setup fairly well, would the Mission be noticibly faster and be better handling? (assuming it is setup properly)

[Remo]

Mission has a far more efficient transmission.

[MarkB]

The SST sport is based on the 99 PRO - the best Schumacher tourer before the Mission. I think you'd notice a lot of improvements in the Mission - more efficient, more steering, better handling, you can use current team driver set ups ;)

With the right set up both the S1 and carbon are great cars to drive. If the ultimate handling for racing is your thing then go for the carbon version. If money is tight and racing is not all out, then the S1 version will still go well.

Cheers
MarkB

[MarkB]

Yes its here - yes I've built it - yes I've now raced it.

Spent a busy but enjoyable day with Jason racing the Mi2s at Milton Keynes. "So what does it go like mister...?"

We were very impressed with how free the transmission was. Better than we ever got the Mission ;) Responds very well to minor changes - still getting used to that many top link holes both inboard and out board. Best of all grips very well and seems much easier to drive fast. and much easier to adjust your line. Moving the batteries in a couple of mm made a lot of difference too - more responsive steering.

Took a fair bit of punishment ont he track boards too, and simply bounced off.

We like - roll on Watford and 19-turn next week.

By the way build was easy - tip is to thread the front hub carriers beforehand. The search starts for an M4 tap...

Cheers
MarkB

PS - no electronic set up sheet yet for the Mi2, otherwise I'd offer my Milton Keynes "Carpet Dragon" set up...

[MattW]

Mark, PM/Mail me the settings, i have a scanned file that i think i can mark up.

[jason]

Matt,
We started with the setup from the manual for carpet went to yellow fronts and red rear springs and dropped the rear link to lower hole. Mark ran carpet dragons and I ran T27s.
Cells run rear about 2mm out from fully in, this improved direction change through a tight chicaine but did result in a little more chassis roll.

Jason

[MattW]

I'll get that down on an Electronic sheet and mail it.

[John_Parker]

Mark,
I have confused myself adjusting the grub screws in my Mission wishbones. I meant to ask you about this when you were at Cambridge, but I was distracted that day!

The grub screws are called droop adjustment, but I have used them to lower the ground clearance. I now think this was probably a mistake, but I had about 9 or 10mm ground clearance without any spring packing pieces.

So, I think I should set ride height purely by changing the spring packing pieces and set the droop with the grub screws, independent of ride height. If my ride height appears too great without any spring packing, I think the springs are too long! Do the more layed-down spring/damper mount positions help this. Any tips/advice?
thanks

[jason]

John,
I assume you are running some soft springs because these are longer the yellows and reds. Alot of us cur down the ball joint on the bottom of the shock by a couple of mm this gives a bit more room for the spring and allows you to maintain ride height at sensible levels with an overall shock lenght of abot 65mm.

Sequence for set up is undo droop screws, set ride height with collars or spacers then reset droop.

Jason

[MarkB]

Listen to Jason ;)

I was more extreme and cut down the bottom shock ball grippa a lot more - 3mm front, 2mm rear. This gave a shock length of 63mm, and a seriously low ride height!

For the record the Mi2 needs to be build with full length ball grippas and longer shocks.

Always set ride height first, then droop then toe-in/camber. You either have v long shocks or are using long black springs to get a 9/10mm ride height.

Set ride height with the packing bits - or by adjusting threaded shocks!

Cheers
MarkB

[John_Parker]

Thanks chaps, that all makes sense - shortening the lower moulded ball joint sounds easier than grinding down the springs, so I will try that. I have been using the blue springs that cames with my kit, but I am now trying red or yellow

[adyb]

Filling Shocks

Hi,

Ive been reading other threads on filling shocks where they add different foam 'things' and different diaphrams to achieve different results of the shocks 'rebound'. In general I follow the manual's method for filling the shock, I understand that we don't have diaphram or foam 'thing' but wondered if you keep the rebound the same from track to track, or what variations do people do for filling Schumacher shocks.

Thanks

[MarkB]

Hey Ady,

Personally I don't mess with the shocks once I've got them set how I like. That involves making sure then lengths are all ok - both sides, and to get the right ride height. The last few posts on this thread should help.

I do sometimes change the shock oil and number of holes open in the vari piston. Those that race with me won't believe this, as it is rare.

It was the Ashby BTCC round where I got good advice to run 30wt oil with one hole piston. Worked like a dream on what is a bumpier track, and I haven't changed back yet!

Cheers
MarkB

[Andrew_Carter]

Spur gear size

Hey Mark

When running the Mi2 outdoors are you using the 95 'kit' spur gear? as you can not reach anything lower than a 5.34 overall on a 20t pully!

Cheers, Andrew

[jason]

Yes you can Andrew I ran 33/95 yesterday at snetterton :o which is off the bottom of the gear chart in the manual, I also think there was room th go up another tooth if required.
I was just too lazy to change the spur gear on a test day.

Jason

[Andrew_Carter]

lol! far enough ill just add it to the gear chart! ;D just that i need a gearing for ashby for next sunday for TORC. Looking at other peoples gearing they ran about 5.3 sound about rite for ashby?? :-

[Andrew_Carter]

On a stock btw :)

[jason]

Should be ok, from what I remember we were closer to 5.1 last time I ran 27T there but that was a P2K2.

Jason

[Andrew_Carter]

Cheers Jason!

I will be running a p2k2 anyway! ;D this should be called ask Mark Burgess and Jason Butterfeild! ;)

Cheers, Andrew

[mick]

do you know if the torx replacement screws schumacher offer for the mission are self tappers or m3 thread as i need to replace some of the original cross head screws but would like to replace with better. i cannot justify the titanium screws at the price though.

if not do they do a hex head replacement

mick