AGM Nov 20th, trial day Nov 6th

[John_Parker]

It's AGM time again, this year's AGM will be held during the race meeting on Sunday, November 20th.

As ever, the current committee of three will stand down and a new committee voted in. If you are interested in standing as Chairman, Secretary or 3rd member, then please let Mark, John or Bob know. I encourage all club members to participate, this is your club, not the current committee's club.

It is also the time to review the club constitution and racing rules, which can be found by following the Club Constitution link on the CRCCCC web site (http://www.crcccc.org.uk)

There was lot's of lively discussion on these pages last year (see this thread (http://www.rcracechat.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11649)) but very few proposals were actually made. Again, don't expect the Committee to make all the proposals, this is your club, make your proposals for changes you would like to see.

The next race meeting on November 6th will be an opportunity to trial proposals. So, if you think we should race 19T instead of 27T motors, we can try a 19T class. Those 1/12th enthusiasts can have a heat of 1/12 if there is sufficient demand. Suggestions to this thread please.

[philtc3]

I think trying 19 turn is a good idea, is anyone interested in trying a 19t heat on sunday.

[John_Parker]

I am blowing the dust off my 1/12 Corallys. Come on Tom, Matt, G, Russell, I think we can get a heat together for Sunday.

[ralph]

Not sure if G is still racing John. Had heard that he may be giving it a break for a bit.

I have nothing against running 19t in terms of the speed. However, I would be against the move, as it would split the current number of racers into two classes. I'd prefer more people in one class and as a result closer racing. I think stock is quick enough for most people bearing in the mind the track size. There are many racers that would definately not benefit from the extra speed as it would make their cars harder to control.

Don't know if this could count as an AGM proposal, but two open meetings a year would be good. I think nearly everyone enjoyed themselves a lot last time round.

[Mark Bristow]

I don't think 19T motors would benefit the club as the easy to drive nature of the relatively low powered 27T motors allows for some very close racing in quite a tight area. Ballracing the 27T sounds good, is it as simple as it sounds to do???

A control tyre/wheel/insert is something I have always liked the idea of, one less variable to allow you to concentrate on racing. I know there has been much debate over this topic but I can't see why it wouldn't work. Doesn't really matter if they aren't even the best tyres, as long as we all have the same and they last a reasonable time.

[ralph]

I agree with you about 19t motors mark. Although I do personally like the extra speed, I don't think it would benefit.

Putting bearings in the motor shouldn't be too hard, but I have heard that it barely makes a difference. I don't mind what happens to that rule.

A control tyre would be interesting for the winter series, but I don't think it should be used permanently. I would like to be able to experiment with different tyres - it is a large part of setup after all. It might just be better to have a control tyre for the winter series. Preglued CS22's seem a popular choice for control tyres if it comes to choosing one in partcular. Sorex 24r's are also very good, but dont last as long.

[Matt Pocknell]

Im not at the club very often, but hope I can help with ideas...

I think the best bet is to stick with stock motors only at milton. The corners are very rounded at milton due to the wooden semi-circles that are layed inside the corners, which makes a very flowing track....ideally suited to close stock racing. 19t would seem strange on a track that has corners with the same curvy'ness (do I mean diameter??? :o ) corners i.e no sharp hairpins/long flowing corners. Not sure if im making any sense at all, but what I mean is the style of the track seems best suited to stock racing where the speed of the car needs to be kept consistant throughout all of the track.

I think a control tyre is a great idea! This would even out the competition for everyone, because as Ralph said, they are a large part of setup. This means that a lot of the setup inexperience of some of the drivers (me imparticular) would not have to worry about having the "new fast tyre" to keep up with the competition. Carpet dragons last forever, literally. The only downside is that they are not available as a pre-glued version. The slick alternatives do not last as long and could increase costs for the younger drivers. Why not have a long lasting control tyre (e.g. carpet dragons), but with any choice of wheels and inserts. This would also enable some tuning options, unlike pre-glued tyres.

Matt

[philtc3]

How about using foams as a control tyre? Something like 37 shores would give more grip than dragons and they last for ages.

Mabye your right about 19t there would probably be no benefit.

[John_Parker]

I don't hear anything in this thread about 1/12th - where are you Tom? Are you up for a 1/12 heat Sunday?

On the motor front my personal view is 27T is fast enough. I'm sure the lap times of most people would be slower with 19T! That said, there are options -Charlie has been trying a brushless set to "Stock" settings. I expect James will propose 4-cell mod. Arguably these are about equivalent to traditional "stock" - should we broaden our definition of allowable motors to cover these? It will take a proposal from someone to do so!

I'd support a control tyre. I don't get time to change things on my car and when I have tried slicks (24R) with my Dragon setup they were hopeless - no heat generated until after 4 minutes, so was drift racing.

[ralph]

I'll try a round on sunday with carpet dragons again. However, I'm a bit sceptical about how well they will run. I know they're not bad, and the durability is VERY good, I just find proper belted slicks work better for me.

Foams is an interesting idea, but I think the general view is that you need additive to be able to use them effectively, at least in 1/12th. Am I right? Could be interesting to see what happens on sunday.

I think Tom is aware you may be racing 1/12th this week John, as it came up on the way to Lowestoft last week. I will tell him to watch this thread if I talk to him soon.

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Foams is an interesting idea, but I think the general view is that you need additive to be able to use them effectively, at least in 1/12th. Am I right? Could be interesting to see what happens on sunday.


I've got a set of foams which work very nicely without additive - they make a full modified driveable indoors on carpet :-)

I agree a control tyre would reduce the difference between the slick tyre haves and have-nots. I don't like dragons, but would like to suggest the HPI HP4495 I've been running a set for three months now, and they are still working well.

[Matt Pocknell]

When control tyres have been introduced, whatever the series, there have always been some people that are not happy with the choice of the tyre. I honestly don't mind what tyre would be chosen (if this rule was to be used), but having everyone on exactly the same tyre would just make things so much easier for the drivers. Drivers who are not prepared to spend so much money on the sport for whatever reason would not have to worry about having the "in" tyre that all the fastest members of the club are using.

Im definately up for people using Jame's 4 cell mod cars, who wouldnt want less maintenance for the same driveability?? ;)

I will definately be bringing dragons to sunday's meeting, hopefully will be testing them back to back with slicks if I have enough time. If the dragons are anywhere near as fast as the slicks I will continue to use them but experiment with the setup...I already have a few ideas from last time I was there using them :eek: .

Matt

[tomlau]

damn this thread has gone crazy since i last read it!

JOHN IM BRING MY 1/12 TOMORROW SO DONT WORRY!

Right, heres my view...

I think the club should be running a stock TC class and a 4cell 19T 1/12 class (or whatever)

Stock TC- Yeah control tyres would be good, probably the CS22 preglued. Very good price and they last a while. Dragons wouldnt be the way to go if you introduce a control tyre. However, i actually think itll be hard to introduce a control tyre as you may not get everyone participating, but we'll see. Foams as a control tyre..thats a joke, right?

ALLOW ADATIVE.

Dont allow foams. Sure, its instant traction but theyre going to cause the beginners and alot of other racers problems. Anyone going to bother checking their ride height, rollout, and tweak every run? Not to mention wasting a set of chunked tyres, or buying a tyre truer.

19T IS A SERIOUSLY BAD IDEA! First up, the hall is too small. i think you'd need to run them using foams (with adative) for any sucess. and also u need people that can run a proper full clean run with a stock motor in, and make no mistakes what so ever. i think those people that cant (including myself) already have more power than they can handle. the 4 cell mod thing ends up like a 6 cell 19T class (as james has proven) so that wouldnt work either. plus you'd need to break up your packs into 4 cells, meaning no racing elsewhere. at least wait till its a sanctioned BRCA class.

1/12- 19Ts and 4 cells will defiantly be the way to go here. anything more than a 19 will be too much on that track, but im going to try an 11T tomorrow just to make sure!! Oh, and john, WE NEED adative for this class. it wont work other wise. well be going round slower than the TCs if we cant have it. Green/Green is the tyre choice if you cant use adative, but who wants to buy all new tyres just to race at one club? plus you only get about 3 meetings out of them, and theyre not that easy to get hold of.
Im in full support of this class to the club and would love to see it work. I can bring my tyre truer to the meetings for people that need to use it.

cya

tom

[Big Jimmy G]

I like the control tire idea too. I think slicks and additive will give greater grip that the dragons and there are some very reasonable priced pre-glued types available, namely the CS22s and the Vtec 24Rs. I like both, the Vtecs are a little faster though. As for durability, granted they are better when new, but I have known racers who have used the CS22s for 3 months or more and still feel they go well. I'm still using a set I bought in June.....

Foams do work without additive, I've tried them too. They are better with, but they last longer without. Again there are trued and glued varieties out there that keep the costs down to a similar level as rubber. On a smallish and relatively low speed track I don't feel as if there will be much speed advantage to balance out the extra wear and setup time needed though.

1/12 seems a great idea - the hall is a perfect size for these little beauties. I might even dust mine off soon.... I don't think they will be drivable without additive.

And how about using additive for the touring cars? Anyone want to second me on that one again? :D

James

PS 4-cell mod. I guess you all know my thoughts on that!

[ralph]

personally i'm happy with everything how it is. At the moment the cars seem to work ok without additive (though it would be a plus). If we're going to use a control tyre PLEASE don't use foams. Rubber slicks would be lovely thanks! :rolleyes:

Not sure if I'm going to be trying much tomorrow other than carpet dragons :o . How is it going to work if people are trying different ideas? is there going to be more practice time between rounds to try ideas like 19t motors or something?

[John_Parker]

When additive was proposed last year, the less experienced and mid-field runners were concerned that it was another variable to get to grips with (so to speak). There's so many things you can set on a TC that it's confusing enough all ready. I can't really comment as I've no real experience using additive on TCs.

James - sell us the benefits of additive sir

I don't like the idea of foams.

[Mark Bristow]

Obviously I'm advocating the use of a control tyre, and I don't care what it is, but just simply out of interest, what's wrong with the Dragons? :confused:

Whilst I'm never gonna compete with either Tom or alex (Unless he breaks his car like last time! ;) ), the Dragons I use always get me a pretty good result especially considering what they're on. I must have done 4 or 5 meetings with them and they look almost untouched so cost is never gonna be an issue.

As for additive, it seems to me that the idea of a control tyre is to ensure everyone has the same available amount of grip. Well, allowing additives is just another way of creating differing levels of grip etc. What additive is bill using this week, he's going really well etc. etc. I've never used additive at CRCCCC and never felt like i needed it. If the tyres your using need additive, use a different tyre.
If we agree to go the control tyre route, then surely the best control would be a pre-glued wheel and tyre and no additive, then we really will be starting on equal ground.

[ralph]

I raced at several clubs where additive is used, and never have I felt like there has been competition as to 'what additive is being used by bill?' (or anyone else for that matter :p ) or that it is a big factor in the cars setup. Additive lasts such a long time that most racers don't buy it often enough to be competitive about it anyway. I'm still using the same £4.50 LRP bottle as I have been for the last two years. It's not a case of new and different additives are being bought every two weeks to trial.

Additive can be used to alter the cars handling, but generally you can just coat all the tyres in it as soon as possible before the race. Make sure you wipe the excess off before you put the car on the track and your done.

If anything I feel it could benefit milton racers. For example, fred's car is feeling really twitchy and oversteering and he isn't sure what to do to make it handle better. By using additive just on the back tyres he could at least help sort his handling dilemma.

I'll leave it to the other's to explain the benefits of additive in detail. As far as I know, it soaks into the tyres and therefore softens them giving more grip. I'm not sure what truth there is in the ideas about it harming the carpet because I haven't been in the RC scene for long enough.

Does this mean I'm allowed to use additive tomorrow John? just to test :D

Also, I just thought. Would it be possible to store the carpet rolled seperately? not in groups of two. The track tends to be bumpy in sections where one roll has stretched more than another (i guess due to the weather or something).

[Matt Pocknell]

Just to give an example of a similar club who have just had the agm and changed some rules....

Milton Keynes used to run on any rubber tyre with no additive. For this indoor season they have changed this rule to allow either carpet dragons (no additive), or sorex 24r's with additive.

How about something similar? eg. any carpet tyre (no additive), or a preglued slick with additive.

Matt

[Mark Bristow]

Ralph,
Your comments on additives seem fair enough to me, I didn't realise they were that simple.

That said, I'm still not convinced we need them and not quite sure what the point of having the option of a carpet tyre or a slick control tyre would be?
People will always think 'maybe I'd of gone better on the carpet tyre today....'.

Anyway, the only way to decide will be with a vote, just hope club members will read this thread or discuss it at the meeting.

[Big Jimmy G]

Ralph has said almost everything that needs to be said.....

Yes, additives do soften the rubber (a little) and therefore give a little more grip. However, they are usually designed to work best with the types of rubber that are generally used in making slick tires. The rubbers that are used in T27s and Dragons are harder since these tires generate heat / grip from the tread blocks moving about, rather than simply being "sticky" like slicks.

When you apply them they coat the surface and soak in a little. Using motor spray (or a tire cleaner) first will help this bit. On the track the additive only lasts for the first lap, or possible two maximum. By this time the tire is heated up and the grip kind of balances out - as the grip from the additive wears off the grip form the actual rubber increases. When I run my CS22s with additive I find the car hardly changes it's total grip at all in the race, it is just as good off the line as it is at the end.

OK, to what are the advantages? To me the primary advantage is that using an additive opens up the use of slick tires. These will generally give a little more grip that Dragons, but more importantly their grip is far more consistent and will not significantly change as there are no tread blocks to wear away over the weeks. Secondly, using an additive often actually increases the life of the tire - they do not slide over the carpet so much while we wait for them to heat up and it also keeps the rubber fresh rather than letting it dry out.

The down sides are the smell, the cost and the potential damage to the carpet. Wrong.

Odorless additives work well (I was using the LRP one today) and are easy to come by. They are also easy to police - if it smells, ban it! To make things easy, the BRCA recomends a list of odorless ones for drivers to choose from.

The cost is minimal - my pot cost £4.50 in Frbruary and is still over half full. I use Halfords clutch cleaner rather than tire cleaner and a £5 tin lasts a good six months.

Damage to the carpet is questonable. I have run at clubs who have used additives for the last 9 - 10 years and their carpet has never been replaced. If anything it is getting better. The only comment I would make is that the tires really must be wiped clean befors the car goes on the track. This prevents black marks being left (and anyway the rubber works better when it is dry!)

One last point...a quote form John P himself, "James, can I borrow a drop of additive for the next race please?" Ok, so this was for his 1/12 car, but are the winds of change blowing?

James

[John_Parker]

Only one rule change proposal received, proposed by MarkB, to replace rule 21b as follows:

Run a Control tyre, wheel and insert.
I propose the CS 22 preglued set available at around £24 for a set of 4.

This will be voted on at the AGM on Sunday.

Still time to get proposals in.

[tomlau]

hey John, Ygm!

[John_Parker]

Two more proposals, one of which is a variation of Mark's on tyres:

"To use only CS22 tire as a control tire, mounted with any rim / insert combination."

and also:

"the use of BRCA approved odorless additives is allowed, so long as drivers take whatever action is required to ensure that no tire marks are left on the carpet".

We also have a good supply of nominations for the committee

see you all Sunday,

[John_Parker]

Here's the updated proposals for tomorrow:

Nominations for Committee:

Chairman James Garrett
Secretary John Parker
Committee Member Mark Bristow

Racing rule change proposals:

Vote 1
Replace rule 20b, which currently states:
Rubber tyres must be used, foam tyres and Mini-Pins are not allowed
with:

"The nominated Control tyre shall be used by all drivers"

Vote 2 to be held only if Vote 1 is carried

"The Control tyre shall be chosen by each member voting for only one of these options:"

(a) HPI HP4495 (on any rim with any insert)
(b) CS22 (on any rim with any insert)
(c) CS22 pre-glued set of tyre, rim and insert available at around £24 for a set of 4
(d) Schumacher Carpet Dragon (on any rim with any insert)

Vote 3
Replace Rule 21, which currently states:
No tyre additive is permitted.
With:
"the use of BRCA approved odorless additives is allowed, so long as drivers take whatever action is required to ensure that no tire marks are left on the carpet".

[John_Parker]

AGM highlights:

Committee 2006 is:
Chairman James Garrett
Secretary John Parker

Committee Member Mark Bristow

Rule changes for 2006:

Rule 20b is replaced with "The nominated Control tyre shall be used by all drivers"

CS22 slick (on any rim with any insert) was chosen as the control tyre

Rule 21, replaced with:

The use of BRCA approved odorless additives is allowed, so long as drivers take whatever action is required to ensure that no tire marks are left on the carpet.

That means bring a towel with you! The BRCA additive list is:

Corally TC2 (Jack the Gripper) Silver can - pink writing (13779)
LRP Top Traction (Blue Factor) White can - blue writing (6501)
Orion Street Juice (TC Traction F1) clear bottle - purple writing (44101)
Orion Foam Juice Formula clear bottle – yellow writing (44105)
CS Grip Tyre Conditioner – High Grip clear bottle white label (C6400) - or short tin can - white and yellow label (C6400)
The packaging of the CS additive changed -same part number, two types of container

Sunday's results on the web site.

Looks like we don't have to rush out to make way for the panto next Sunday (4th)

[tomlau]

So when does the tyre rule take effect? next meeting?

id just like to add (for anyone that doesnt know) CS22s are made by Take Off and are distributed in the UK by cmldistribution. avaliable at most shops!

[Stelios Bishop]

so what wheel and insert do you recommend for the cs22 and what additive to use?

what would i do if needed for setup

stelios

[bacchus32]

Dear John

I am returning in January for the Winter series and would suggest caution regarding fragmenting the group, especially when it seems so competitive. We have limited time on a sunday morning and running additional classes would mean less racing for the majority of people who won't have both types of car. My fear would be alienating those drivers who only have 10th scale cars, who as you know want to race as many times as possible. If these members race less then questions may be asked regarding value for money.

Regarding motors, I believe 19t is a better option. The motors are cheaper to buy and maintain and only offer slight advantages in speed. Many clubs seem to run 19t these days rather than 27t. Again, I would not agree with running both. I've just purchased a lovely 27t motor so no changes yet pls!

I am very much looking forward to returning in January and putting the "young pretenders" in their place! I will contact you directly to arrange the membership. Thanks Jason