Ask Team Orion

[DA_cookie_monstA]

OK, I hope this is OK with the section Mod and the forum Admin, but with such a revoloutionary design take on the 540 based motor, I think this is a good place to ask questions.

Have fun Rick and Phillipe.

[Philippe Neidhart]

It is always fun to exchange experiences with RC friends ! If somebody as questions they are welcome, I will also ask Oscar Jansen to join us after his trip in Thailand, he went to the Reedy Race. I have seen some Revolution motors in is lugguage ... Soon after this race he will go to Cleveland. I have some experience with the Revolution.
I have participated to the patenting of the V2 endbell. The endbell is produced here in Switzerland, the winding and final assembly is made by Team Orion USA in California. Rick is the expert as a manufacturer, Oscar has the most track experience and myself I have a nice overview on that project that I started about 18 months ago. I am not the designer of it, it has been created by our team of engeener, especially Oscar and Fabrice.
It is a big challenge as it is never easy to try to change things used since years and to convince people that it could work. The project was to create a new concept for high power electric motors with a longer life of the commutator and the brushes, almost no maintenance but at the same time more power and easier to drive with a wide power band.
Testing have been made worldwide in all classes, all type of tracks and from what I have read in this board it looks like it is well accepted by the one who tried it.

OK now you kknow a little about hpw it started ...

Feel free to ask any questions !

Philippe

[Dave G]

ok,whats the current consumption like compared to a similair wind normal modified and secondly,does it feel different to drive?

thanks

dave

[Philippe Neidhart]

Hello Dave,

The current consumption is similar or a little lower. I will try to explain one of the principle with simple words as I am not engeener. I think the best is to explain normal motor vs Revolution :

a) Comutators are never 100% round and with a normal motor you need heavy springs to push the brushes against the com to avoid the com to push them out and loose contact.
b) The faster a normal motor revs the higher the spring tension need to be. If not you loose contact with the surface of the com. It start jumping create sparks and destroy your brush/com surface.
c) High tension is pushing hard the brush against the com and they act like brake pads.
d) You try to have high rpm, high power and at same time you need to increase the springs tension, which increase the friction.
Result : The more power you want, the more friction = more brush wear, com wear, temp generating.

With the angled endbell :
A) Due to the angle you only need a fraction of the spring tension as the force are going in 2 directions.
B) The More fast it turn the more it push the brush against the copper tube resulting in an increase of contact giving more power.
C) Lower tension = less friction, more RPM, less temperature, less resistance, less comm and brush wear.
D) The more RPM you get the stronger it push it against the wall the more dampening effect you get due to the force against the tube wall. The More difficult it is for the brush to moove up aand loose contact.

Driving :
You get a much wider power band, and from all the test driver the mid range torque is much higher. It makes the cars really driveable and the motors much more smooth even if the accelaration is faster as you have the same feeling all the way long.

I hope it is clear enough, just a small remark, I am from a region we speak French, Geneva, Switzerland, and I am not an English expert.

Philippe

[darryl]

morning philippe
just a small comment,your written english is excellent,and yes understanding you is not a problem
many thanks
darryl

[Philippe Neidhart]

Good morning Darryl,
Thank you !

[johnbull]

Philippe. Greetings from Malta.

Console yourself. Your English is alot better than my French, and I imagine, that of many of the readers of this board. So please carry on with your useful info on the V2.

Although I am your Malta distributor I still haven't tried one, but hope to do so soon.

Regards

Joe from sunny Malta.

[Philippe Neidhart]

Hello Joe,

How is the weather in Malta ? Here it is starting to be really cold !
The indoor season has started here.

Have a great week-end,

Philippe

[DA_cookie_monstA]

From what I have read, this is a the motor that will complement the GP3300 cells, as the motor looks after its brush/commutator a lot better for the same given output.

Has there been any independant tests done in a comparison type scheme. Maybe a motor shoot out between the top guys to measure performance V wear?

[Philippe Neidhart]

Here is a feed back from Eirik, Norway
Philipe,

Nice to "Talk" with you again!

I must say that the V2 motors are by far the best motors ever made!!
I have talked to several world class drivers that are in fact sponsored by other brands, but still they are going to buy this motor to practice with. Simply because you can have the same insane power, run after run with no rebuild!
You can spend more time working on your car and set up rather than rebuild motors after each run!

I have tested my motor allot since the TC Euros, about 150 runs or so.
I have only used 4 set's with brushes and I am still running the same armature! This is just outstanding!!!
Just started running indoors on carpet, here you can really feel the difference from standard motors. This motor have the most bottom end power I have ever had!!

I love it and I will never run anything else ever again!!

Thanks for making such a great product!

Eirik Andreassen

[Mike Haswell]

The last post from Philippe was a copy of an e-mail sent to him from Eirik, a Norwegian driver who actually attended the last round of the BRCA Touring Car series where he qualified 19th.

[Philippe Neidhart]

Hello Mike,

Yes correct, DA_cookie_monstA was asking for some feedbacks. I took the permission to put Eitik feeling on the board. I hope it was not forbidden.

Have a good week-end.

Philippe

[Dave G]

thanks for taking the time answer the questions philippe,your answers were clear and understood.

hopefully this motor will slot in somewhere between the brushless and modified,giving the best of both worlds,performance without it costing too much to maintain,and having consistent performance.

since i run orion core motors anyway,i will definately be looking at getting my hands on one.

thanks
dave

[Philippe Neidhart]

Dear Dave,

You are welcome, if you have other technical questions, please feel free to ask ! The motor as a lot of other improvement which are really interesting.

Philippe

[richard_cree]

Just to add an off roaders opinion in I've been using the V2 motors since the off road euros in austria and they have been superb.

typically the motor will easily do 15 or so runs before needing any work, in fact it tends to get faster after a few runs.

The power band is really good too, typically motors have too much bottom end for 2wd off road but the new design gives a big boost to the mid and top end power hence you can actually go down a couple of winds ( i.e. use a 14turn instead of a 12) and still get the performance you want, along with a big increase in driveability.

They are also good for 4wd, especially at the euros where a 10 turn limit was in force. The 10 I ran had the same bottom end as a core motor, but vastly more mid and top end than even an 8 turn could provide.

All in all a fantastic product!

[rice98w]

how will this motor perform in 12th scale? where the motor needs to be very efficient, does the new brush design encourage efficiency?

thanks

[Philippe Neidhart]

Hello,

The motor construction has been made to be more efficient and it will be a good choice for 1/12 scale as well.
The round brushes are allowing a super smooth comutation, one of the key thing is that the brush holder made in copper are going very close to the come, about 0,2 mm instead of the traditional 2 mm with normal hardware. In normal motors the current has to go through those 2 mm of brush before reaching the com. In the Revolution the current has to go only in one tenth of the rbrush length so less resistance. Also the rear ball bearing is mounted with O-RIngs around it to allow a perfect allignment with the bb of the can and cut any vibration which could go from the can to the commutator.
The full aluminium endbell is a great heat absorber and dissipator, the brush stay much more cool and efficient. And last thing the fact that the soldering of the wires are directly on the copper tube, a lot of current is going directly to the brush through the copper tube itself and when your com is rotating it is pushing the brush against the inside of the tube you have a super contact. The fact that you have a larger power band and higher mid power is allowing to drive with less throttle and save energy in the infield.

Philippe

[rice98w]

wow--- a speedy reply! ;D

cheers matey

[Philippe Neidhart]

Matt,

I will not be able to reply always as fast, but here it is the week-end and it is really cold outside, and as I really enjoy exchanging ideas and it looks like this new motor is creating some interest, I try my best. Also I have raced for long time and I still love RC and the RC community. It is great to be here with al of you !

Philippe

[Craig]

Dont worry about the speed of a reply. The fact is you give very good infomation. What is the difference in the different types of motors?

[Philippe Neidhart]

Dear Craig,

I will try to explain it the best I can !

Revolution Touring : Touring armature, enduro brushes (2 extra sets included in the box) black endbell.
The Touring armature is designed for more rpm.

Revolution Modified : Off-Road type armature. enduro brushes (also 2 more set of brushes included) blue endbell. armature giving more torque.

Hara edition : Touring special squeal armature with special comutator, sprint brushes.

Steenari edition : Off-Road special squeal armature, sprint brushes.

The enduro brushes are using the compound of the 10/30 we used in the Core but you can do 20 to 50 packs with one set of brush depending how you are driving, geared etc.

The sprint are our 2-3 compound but in the Revolution you can make 15-20 packs with them without re-doing your comutator.


The squeal armature has a different comutator, the 3 segment split are not parallel to the armature but have also an angle to pre-electrify the nex coils and have a super smooth comutation. On std type comutators when the brush is going from one segment to the other you always have a short period of time without current. With the angled comms you always of current going in the coils.

Philippe

[Rick Hohwart]

I just to add to what Philippe said and give an explanation of the difference between a Modified and Touring motor.

Th Modifed version, designed for Off-road, uses a thick web (where the wire is wound) armature. This heavier armature provides a power band more suitable for off road racing. Response is not lighting quick so you can actually feel the throttle response and use it to your advantage in slick or rough off road conditions. Because in off road you are rarely suing full thorttle, this drivability is very useful.

The Touring uses a thin web armature that maximizes response (low end) which is good in higher grip on road and carpet tracks.

[Philippe Neidhart]

Thank you Rick,

Your help is welcome !

[Ben Turner]

I would just like to back up what Philippe and Rick have been saying. It is not hype. This is one seriously quick motor, that gets quicker. I have done 5 runs with it so far, on 3300's, and it just gets faster because of the tiny amount of brush wear!. To run the brushes in like you normally do, i would think you would need to leave it running for about 15mins!, and then it would still be getting better!.

Ben

[chrislee]

Phillipe & Rick, first of all can I say what a pleasure it is having you on this forum and the new motor looks awesome.

On a different subject, I have just been on the Team Orion forum and read how Rick cares for his cells. Discharge at 30 Amps down to 5.4v. The Orion AT3410 discharger, which I use, takes the cells down to 4.8v at 30 Amps. Is this safe? Is there any reason why it does not cut off at 5.4v?

I would have asked this through the Orion forum but it won't let me join for some reason ???

Many thanks

Chris

[Philippe Neidhart]

Hello Chris,

Thanks for the nice comments !

Since you are making a fast discharge, it is OK to go down to 0,8 volt per cell, you can also swith to the 7 cells setup and it will stop at 5,6 volt for your pack.

No worry it is safe, if you put a voltmeter on your pack you will see that when the discharge is ending, the voltage is going higher again.

Philippe

[chrislee]

OK Philippe, thank you

[university_dave]

At the risk of offending certain people (Name with held), is there going to be a 19t Spec motor with the new design?

[Philippe Neidhart]

Hello Dave,

We are working on 27 turns, 23 turns, 19 an 17 turns motors with the new concept. In order to reduce the cost of racing and specially for spec racing the longer life of the brush and commutator will help a lot.

Philippe

[rebel]

Hi
could you give some help we are running a Peak V2 11x2 for 1st time in a xxx4 on a clay track. only one in UK.
I am starting with the gearing @ 90x22 reading your coments will i need to run this at 20 x90.

I have some sprint brushs with me but only std springs. any advice will be greatfuly recived normanly run D5

[Philippe Neidhart]

Hello Rebel,

I have more knowledge in the technical aspect of the motor but from what I understood from Oscar and Rick you can gear one or two teeth down vs what you would normally use. The most important is to have fully run in brushes.

Try the enduro brushes first with the std springs.

It could take 2 packs for your motor to reach maximum performance.

Let us know how it went !

Philippe

[rebel]

many thanks for that will do.
two good things to look forward to clay track with big jumps and a new motor with lots of pertential.

[rebel]

Philippe

as reqested we TQ'ed and won the track was wet and very sticky dropped the gearing 2 teeth. The motor seemed to get btter as the day went on evan though the track got worse.

the motor was very good in the conditions a lot of bottom end but very usable have not taken it apart yet driver impressed with the performance.

look forward to trying it on astro and in dry.

Phill

[Philippe Neidhart]

Dear Phill,

Congratulation for the great results. I think your motor became faster when the brushes become breaked-in.

I am looking forward to see how it will be on astro as it is something tipacally from UK !

Have a lot of fun.

Good end of week-end,

Philippe

[Philippe Neidhart]

If somebody has tested both Enduro and Sprint brushes, could you tell the difference you have seen on the track and life time ?

Thank you.

Philippe

[johnbull]

Hi friends. greetings from Malta.

Philippe, if you are referring to 10/30 and Sprint on the normal (not V2) motors then we run both regularly. I also sell lots of both.

The 10/30 is a very good all rounder. It doesn't give the ultimate power of the Sprint but is a very good brush for general use.

The Sprint - we run either serrated or bullet - gives more power for a couple of runs but blues quicker.

So 10/30 for messing. Sprint for racing.

Regards

Joe from sunny Malta.

[PDW]

Hi Joe, hope all is well with you.

Could I make an tiny little request-ette for your posts?, please?!!

Stop telling me how b****y sunny it is in Malta!!!!!!!!!! It's p...ersistently coming down here, and about to get cold and we can't race outdoors for fear of frostbite and all I hear is how sunny it is in Malta. Well, bully for you ....... (disappears into distance muttering stupidly and holding umrella up against prevaling northerly force eight .........) !!!!!! ;D ;D ;D

Nice to hear you again, best wishes to you and Josh.

Peter

[KRob]

Hi guys.

How long do the serrations last on the round brushes?
How much of a performance drop off is there if motors are running for 10+ runs without changing them?
And is there any way of re-serrating them ?

Ta.

[Ben Turner]

Hi Kieth,
I havent had any touring car experience with the motor (i will next weekend), but i ran it in 12th at the last chippenham, and left it in all day and and you could still see the grooves from the serrations. Performance wise it was on it all day, with runtime only dropping from 72sec to 60sec. I dont think there is any way of resserating them yet, but when this thing takes off i am sure there will be!

Ben

[KRob]

Thanks Ben,

Now correct me I seem a little dim here.
The brushes come serrated, there wear off after a few runs - and we are told the motor performs better after a few runs.
Is there any need them to be re-serrated?

[rebel]

K Rob
How are you?
We have been running a Peak motor with the round brushes we have yet to get to the piont where the serations have worn away. using sprint brushes, med hard springs. 11x2.

have now completed 3 meetings and skimmed once the com needed a very light skim and it was right back to A1 condition.

They sound like your type of motor.

Phill

[Ben Turner]

I dont know wether an advantage will be had from resserating them, but what i will say is that motor performance didnt drop off att all, it got a tad better, so i would think that it would be best to leave the brushes fully bedded in.

Ben

[KRob]

have now completed 3 meetings and skimmed once the com needed a very light skim and it was right back to A1 condition.

They sound like your type of motor.

Phill


Right on!!!

[Philippe Neidhart]

The serrations are made to allow the brushes to run-in quicker, the maximum power is generated when the brushes is fully in contact with the commutator !

Philippe

[Ben Turner]

I was just rebuilding my motor (the first time so far) , and noticed that a track on the pcb has peeled off and now the led does not work!, Has anyone else had this problem, or is it just me? Oh yea, the motor still works perfectly!

Ta
Ben

[Chrislong]

These motors sound awesome, I am yet to see one here.

I have just one question, all my others have been answerred by reading all the past posts...

Will these motors be mass produced and on the shelves, easy to find? Or is production limitted due to new tooling costs, learning new technologies etc..

Chris

[TimG]

Chris,

These motors have been readily available for around a month now.

All GOOD shops will have some form of stock.

I've sent you a pm !!!

HTH

[Doomanic]

Unfortunately, both Helger (Peak) and Mirage (Orion) are currently out of stock of all winds of V type motors.

[Rick Hohwart]

Ben you should contact Team Orion Europe for a replacement board.

The motors are being mass produced (as mass produced as a hand wound motor can be) but the demand has been much higher than expected and we are currently shipping motors worldwide with no delays. My best suggestion is to place an order with your local shop and make sure they have them ordered from their distributor.

[Dan Reynolds]

i just have a quick question about gearing on these new 'V' motor's.............up until last week i have been running a reedy Kr 12x1 with a gear ratio of about 8.49 (96/20x1.77)
its very quick and i only give the comm a light skim every 2 races and change the brushes after every 3 races, will this ratio still work or should i go to a lower pinion???

[burgie]

Apologies if this has been asked before, but with all the different names attached to these motors, does this mean that they are for different applications? If they do, which motor would be best suited to 2wd buggies?

[nitro-head]

from what i have been told, the hara edition, the steenari and the standard touring edition are all the same apart from the colour and the stickers.

only the modofied are slightly different (like the old one was) as it is suited to off road i think.

i may be mistaken but this is wot i have been told.

[Speedfreak]

If you read back you will find that it has already been metioned what the differences are. The hara etc edition actually has a different armature a 'squeal' arm i belive . Read page two or three of this thread and it tells all ;D

[redlinezak]

just wondering if you guys think it is worth waiting for the as yet unreleased over here steenari edition motor or whether i would be ok going for the normal touring edition. I s the difference between the two going to be very noticable and also will there be a significant difference in cost?

Thanks

Nathan

[Ben Turner]

I havent tried one of the hara/steenari editions yet, because as you say they are not out yet, but i have a touring version and all i will say is that you will not be disapointed, and i dont thing it would be humanly possible to make anything faster then it!!, but we shall see, bring one the hara edition!!!!

Ben

[johnbull]

The motors are being mass produced (as mass produced as a hand wound motor can be) but the demand has been much higher than expected and we are currently shipping motors worldwide with no delays. My best suggestion is to place an order with your local shop and make sure they have them ordered from their distributor.


I am an Orion distributor. I ordered some motors a couple of weeks ago and have been told I won't have them before at least January.

And I didn't order a container load either!

Regards

Joe from sunny Malta.

[Mark Stiles]

Which type would be most suited to a 1/12th circuit car? If the touring is for, well, touring! The modified is for off road (according to sponge bob), then what is for 1/12th?

[Dan Reynolds]

Is anyone else having problems soldering on these motors???
I use corraly tube connectors on all my motors and soldering them on is a right pain about 3 people had a go at the race last night before it worked. They just dissipate so much heat that the solder just will not take to it. Does anyone know how you can get around this

Thanks
Dan

[PDW]

Dan,

Two things might help - try one and avoid the other.

Try filing the area you want to solder to first, until you see bright copper. File gently, you are just trying to remove the discoloured (oxidised) layer - some 400 grit Wet 'n Dry paper would do. Tin this area with a resin-cored solder and you should be OK. The other way you might be offered is to use an acid flux - like Bakers Fluid. Avoid this at all costs because if it spatters onto the aluminium endbell it will eat it away!

The problem is that the heat in this area is helping to form an oxidised layer on top of the copper. Although this protects the tube, it makes it a b****r to solder to! HTH :)

[nitro-head]

but how come my dad managed to do it for ya Dan ;D

altho his gas iron is the equivalent to 120W :P

[redlinezak]

cam anyone tell me whether the special edition "squeal" arms will be available independantly as i may replace the standard one on a 12 single touring edition v2 when the time comes. Also would there be any problems in doing this?


Thanks

Nathan

[PDW]

Only one Nathan, and it's not physical! BRCA rules do not allow hybrid motors (mixing armatures and cans and endbells) only the complete motor as homologated. If you want to race in BRCA events, you won't be legal mixing arms and cans.

Check the BRCA website www.brca.org (http://www.brca.org) to see whether the combination you want is homologated as a single unit - if it is you are OK. HTH :)

[Craig]

Any news on a stock version of this motor?

[redlinezak]

thanks i didnt think of that i do not race any brca events at the moment but hope to try some next year.